Sport Pilot Talk

jman · Joined: 21 Mar 2010 Posts: 6 Location: Homewood, AL

My granddad's a retired air force pilot. I want him to train me for a sport pilot certificate, but some of the requirements are unclear to me. He definitely meets the hours, age, and driver's license requirements, and he knows the flight instructors at his airport, and he has an airplane to teach me in. I think he knows what I need to know and pretty much anything there is to know about flying anything but jets and airliners, so could one of the instructors at his airport endorse his logbook so he could take the knowledge and practical tests? Or does he have to actually log hours with them?

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1193 Location: Lock Haven PA

jman wrote: My granddad's a retired air force pilot.

Before you go any farther: be sure to thank him for his service!

Quote:
I want him to train me for a sport pilot certificate, but some of the requirements are unclear to me.

The basic requirement is: he needs to be either a CFI (certified flight instructor) or a CFI-SP (sport pilot instructor). To become a CFI, one has to hold a commercial pilot's license, instrument rating, second class medical certificate or higher, take two knowledge tests (one written for aviation material, and another on Fundamentals of Instruction), receive specific ground and flight instruction, have logged spin training, be endorsed for and take a practical test involving both oral and flight segments. Becoming a CFI-SP is quite a bit simpler: no commercial, instrument, spin training, or medical required, but still both writtens, specific flight instruction, logbook endorsements, and oral and flight tests. Be aware, however, that if you ever intend to go on for higher ratings, instruction taken from a CFI counts. Instruction provided by a CFI-SP does not count for ratings beyond Sport Pilot.

Quote: he has an airplane to teach me in.

If you are going for the Sport Pilot rating, that airplane has to be Light Sport qualified. And, he has to have insurance to cover flight instruction.

Quote:
I think he knows what I need to know and pretty much anything there is to know about flying

Flight instruction does indeed require knowledge about flying -- but also, knowledge about teaching. If he was a military flight instructor, he probably is up to the task. If not, it will take him quite a while to come up to speed on the teaching part of the job.

Quote: could one of the instructors at his airport endorse his logbook so he could take the knowledge and practical tests? Or does he have to actually log hours with them?

Yes, he has to fly with an instructor: "A person who is applying for a flight instructor certificate must receive and log flight and ground training from an authorized instructor in the areas of operation listed in this section..." There's no specific requirement to log any particular number of hours, but he has to "demonstrate (emphasis added) instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures." Pretty hard to demonstrate this if not actually flying with the instructor who endorses you. And, not just with any flight instructor. A CFI must meet certain minimums to train other CFIs. That's covered in FAR 61.195. In short, the instructor must have held a flight instructor certificate for at least 24 months and given 40 hours of ground training, or must have given at least 100 hours of ground training in an FAA-approved course.

Hope this helps clarify.

jman · Joined: 21 Mar 2010 Posts: 6 Location: Homewood, AL

Ok, thanks. His plane is E-LSA, not sure about insurance. He was not a military flight instructor as far as I know, but he did receive military training. The license would be CFI-SP. Thanks!

ka7eej · Joined: 28 Jan 2007 Posts: 172 Location: Taylor, Az

Josh,

The is nothing that will prevent you from going to fly with him (if he is indeed licensed as a SP or PP or higher) and learn as much as you can about flying, and ground school type items from him..The time spent cannot be logged by you.. Most student pilots need more dual instruction than the minimum number of hours before they are ready to take their checkride. The time spent with your grandfather may help to reduce your training time spent with a paid instructor. You will still have to log at lease the minimum (15) hours of Dual with a CFI or CFI-SP...pass a written test and other requirements before a checkride... By the way, you can train(Dual) in any single engine land airplane, You must do your solo in a LSA and must take your checkride in an LSA. Then you can only fly an Lsa..
Good luck!!
Brian

ka7eej · Joined: 28 Jan 2007 Posts: 172 Location: Taylor, Az

Whoops , just remembered the part about a ELSA...... There are some special rules here... You may need to be an owner of the plane to use it for training and you may have a problem getting a CFI or CFI-SP to trainyou in it.... I hope your Grandfather can find a way to get CFI.... Somebody else help me out here... What are those rules when it comes to using a ELSA for training??
Brian

Helen · Joined: 23 Apr 2007 Posts: 114 Location: Maryland

Does your grandpa have any civilian ratings? Was he an instructor in the AF? If no and yes he can probably transition his military time and training over to civilian rating through some fairly new rules recently adopted through the FAA. One of the instructors on my staff went through this process so if you need help, PM me and I'll get your grandpa in touch with my instructor.

Helen

3Dreaming · Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 267 Location: noble, IL USA

Spin training is required for airplane and gliders for a SP-CFI

drseti wrote: jman wrote: My granddad's a retired air force pilot.

Before you go any farther: be sure to thank him for his service!

Quote:
I want him to train me for a sport pilot certificate, but some of the requirements are unclear to me.

The basic requirement is: he needs to be either a CFI (certified flight instructor) or a CFI-SP (sport pilot instructor). To become a CFI, one has to hold a commercial pilot's license, instrument rating, second class medical certificate or higher, take two knowledge tests (one written for aviation material, and another on Fundamentals of Instruction), receive specific ground and flight instruction, have logged spin training, be endorsed for and take a practical test involving both oral and flight segments. Becoming a CFI-SP is quite a bit simpler: no commercial, instrument, spin training, or medical required, but still both writtens, specific flight instruction, logbook endorsements, and oral and flight tests. Be aware, however, that if you ever intend to go on for higher ratings, instruction taken from a CFI counts. Instruction provided by a CFI-SP does not count for ratings beyond Sport Pilot.

Quote: he has an airplane to teach me in.

If you are going for the Sport Pilot rating, that airplane has to be Light Sport qualified. And, he has to have insurance to cover flight instruction.

Quote:
I think he knows what I need to know and pretty much anything there is to know about flying

Flight instruction does indeed require knowledge about flying -- but also, knowledge about teaching. If he was a military flight instructor, he probably is up to the task. If not, it will take him quite a while to come up to speed on the teaching part of the job.

Quote: could one of the instructors at his airport endorse his logbook so he could take the knowledge and practical tests? Or does he have to actually log hours with them?

Yes, he has to fly with an instructor: "A person who is applying for a flight instructor certificate must receive and log flight and ground training from an authorized instructor in the areas of operation listed in this section..." There's no specific requirement to log any particular number of hours, but he has to "demonstrate (emphasis added) instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures." Pretty hard to demonstrate this if not actually flying with the instructor who endorses you. And, not just with any flight instructor. A CFI must meet certain minimums to train other CFIs. That's covered in FAR 61.195. In short, the instructor must have held a flight instructor certificate for at least 24 months and given 40 hours of ground training, or must have given at least 100 hours of ground training in an FAA-approved course.

Hope this helps clarify.

jman · Joined: 21 Mar 2010 Posts: 6 Location: Homewood, AL

We can rent a plane if we need to. And why would he only be able to give me ground training if he's going to be a CFI-SP? I'll look into the thing about the student having to own an experimental to train in one.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1193 Location: Lock Haven PA

3Dreaming wrote: Spin training is required for airplane and gliders for a SP-CFI

Ah, so it is -- right there in 61.409. This could be a problem, actually, for SPs wanting to instruct, since pretty much all of the S-LSAs I've seen are placarded against spins!

KSCessnaDriver · Joined: 25 Jan 2009 Posts: 150 Location: KOJC

drseti wrote: Ah, so it is -- right there in 61.409. This could be a problem, actually, for SPs wanting to instruct, since pretty much all of the S-LSAs I've seen are placarded against spins!

Is there anything requiring the spin training to be done in an LSA? Could you not do it in say a Cessna 152? The CFI "student" wouldn't have to be PIC, and could still log the flight as Dual Received.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1193 Location: Lock Haven PA

KSCessnaDriver wrote:
Is there anything requiring the spin training to be done in an LSA?

Not that I can find in the FARs.

Quote:
Could you not do it in say a Cessna 152? The CFI "student" wouldn't have to be PIC, and could still log the flight as Dual Received.

I was thinking a 150 Aerobat -- but yes, that's probably the way it'll get done. But, given that we're going to have CFI-SPs teaching CFI-SPs to train SPs, I see this as a weakness in the whole training chain. It means that the LSA community can never be self-contained and self-sufficient (at least, until we get spinnable S-LSAs).

I'm actually training a future CFI-SP, but can't give him spin training because I'm exercising SP privileges myself (no medical). So, if neither one of us can be PIC in a spin-worthy aircraft, the whole mission is compromised.

KSCessnaDriver · Joined: 25 Jan 2009 Posts: 150 Location: KOJC

drseti wrote: I was thinking a 150 Aerobat -- but yes, that's probably the way it'll get done. But, given that we're going to have CFI-SPs teaching CFI-SPs to train SPs, I see this as a weakness in the whole training chain. It means that the LSA community can never be self-contained and self-sufficient (at least, until we get spinnable S-LSAs).

I'm actually training a future CFI-SP, but can't give him spin training because I'm exercising SP privileges myself (no medical). So, if neither one of us can be PIC in a spin-worthy aircraft, the whole mission is compromised.

Are J-3 Cubs or Aeronca Champs able to be spun? Seems like those older standard category airplanes, that can be flown by a sport pilot might be able to do spin training.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1193 Location: Lock Haven PA

KSCessnaDriver wrote:

Are J-3 Cubs or Aeronca Champs able to be spun?

Yes, but I'd have some misgivings about spinning a 70 year old airplane.

bryancobb · Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:57 pm Post subject: CFI Sport Spin Training.

I did my reqired spinning in a 1950 something??? I think, Super Cub.
I suspect MOST of these old airplanes are not flying with the same spars/struts etc., that they came with. If I know that the frame isn't rusty and the spars are in good shape, I suppose spinning them is OK. My CFI I was doing it with is a Delta Connection RJ Pilot and he owned the Cub. He snap rolls it, hammerheads it, loops it tight. I guess it's stout.

3Dreaming · Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 267 Location: noble, IL USA

drseti wrote: KSCessnaDriver wrote:

Are J-3 Cubs or Aeronca Champs able to be spun?

Yes, but I'd have some misgivings about spinning a 70 year old airplane.

But you would do it in a 35 year old 150? Finding spin training for a CFI right now is a little tough. There is an AD on the 150-152's prohibiting spins until a certain kit is installed. I'm not sure that Cessna has the kit out yet.