Sport Pilot Talk

brchristensen · Joined: 12 Jun 2010 Posts: 3 Location: Wheat Ridge, CO

Since I've received so much good information from this site, I thought that I would give the Gleim Online Ground School course a review here in case anyone is looking into online ground school programs..

I bought it a couple weeks ago, and finished today. Note that I was able to finish fairly quickly because I've been doing some reading off and on since the sport pilot regulation was enacted.

As a ground school, I was unimpressed by this program. A program that represents itself as a "ground school" I would expect to have some instruction included with it. The Gleim program really did not. There was a very basic 3 minute overview with each section, and an outline. I skipped most of the audio visual sections because of their limited value.

Where I felt the program was good, was the outline of all the key topics. I then was able to reference the appropriate information in the PHAK, AIM/FAR, etc, and teach myself. I was able to find some good video materials on Youtube, etc, which was helpful as well. Without the additional materials that I had to find on my own, I would never have completed the program successfully.

Following the outline, there was a study session (40-60 questions) and then a test session immediately following a review of the study questions that were missed. The test questions are the same as the questions in the study session, just in a different order.

A significant program I ran into was reading some of the charts presented (weight and balance, density altitude, aircraft specs). On many of them, there were line graphs that had to be read fairly exactly to come up with a good answer. The multiple choice questions had some very similar answers, and if the graphics were difficult to read, it in turn made it difficult to come up with the correct response. I found that in a few cases I had to trial and error through a close but incorrect response so I could be sure to have the correct response for the final test. One thing that does seem to help this is to print out the references from the course. Nonetheless, this does not completely eliminate the issue. To be fair, Gleim was pretty quick in getting back to me regarding my concern as left on the feedback form. Hopefully they'll find a way to address this.

Overall, as a ground school it receives low marks from me. As a study guide and test prep, I would call it satisfactory for the reasons mentioned above. As a somewhat low-cost way to get through the process and get an endorsement for the knowledge test, it is reasonable as well. If one has a little more to spend, I would strongly advise looking into one of the other programs before going with this one. If you have a good amount of knowledge already though, this might be a good route for you.

Paul Hamilton · Joined: 21 May 2007 Posts: 340 Location: Reno/Tahoe Nevada

I am not defending the G system because I have heard similar reviews, but it should be understood that “Ground School” has evolved over the years to be “studying to pass the FAA knowledge test”. As far as the common advertised “Ground School” goes, nothing is further from the TRUTH. With all the popular "ground schools" from ASA, Gleim, and King, do not expect a comprehensive ground school to get your sport pilot certificate.

Expect something to get you through the knowledge test since that is what it is. I work and help design the knowledge test prep materials called ground school, and the objective is to teach you the information to get you through the knowledge test questions as simply and easily as possible.

Understanding the important things that keep you safe and flying confidently are the first and most important things you should learn in GROUND SCHOOL. Unfortunately, this most important knowledge is not taught for the classical “knowledge test prep” ground school.

“Ground School ” is actually three specific areas of knowledge:

1. Learning the flight and aircraft operation procedures before getting in the cockpit, the most fun part of ground school.

2. Leaning the aeronautical knowledge (weather, sectionals, cross country, etc.). This is also an interesting part of ground school that is used to be a safe pilot.

3. Learning the answers to the FAA Questions to pass the knowledge test. This is the least interesting and scariest. It requires unnecessary time spent and additional brain volume required that does us the least good.

Yes some of the information for items 1 and 2 above are in the 3 knowledge test prep, but the knowledge test prep is only 20% of the ground school you will need to learn.

Note that the “knowledge test prep” ground school is required, but not at the beginning of flight training or the more important ground school. The FAA Knowledge test is simply some measure of the applicants ability to remember some of the concepts plus the regulations.

If you can learn the fun and most important stuff first (items 1 and 2 above) on the ground in “Ground School”, it is more efficient than using the cockpit as the classroom which costs you 3 to 5 times as much to learn the knowledge. Do not worry, all the fun ground school builds towards the final phase of “3 ground school” to take the FAA Knowledge Test and the Checkride. It is easier to learn the information and then be able to answer the FAA questions, when memorize the questions and answers.

The best resources are the FAA handbooks “Pilot’s Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge” 8083-25A and the “Airplane Flying Handbook” 8083-3A. These should be your reference books for all your ground schools and preparing for the Checkride also. I have modified/enhanced both these books for sport pilots flying LSA as a downloadable PDF. This allows you to know that to study and what not to study plus add important information. If you want a complete “ground school” covering all three needed topics visit http://sport-pilot-training.com/hamilton-pilot-training/

Aerco · Joined: 26 Aug 2009 Posts: 68 Location: Corona CA

I have to admit the Gleim course are very "to the point" and they make no bones about it. If you learn best from nice graphics and colorful explanations and video, these are not for you. But they do excel at reducing all the extraneous material to that which you need to get through the knowledge test and, again, they say that is their aim. But an enjoyable, memorable course it is not. I chose it because it condenses everything down to the essential, purely as exam prep. You really need to learn your stuff in any way that works for you, but Gleim does a good job of condensing it to what will appear on the test.

Regarding the poor graphs etc - every course i have seen and the official FAA material is just as bad. Three different people will come up with three different result every time on the landing distance graphs, for example. I actually ended up memorizing the answers, I got so fed up with them.

The knowledge test is a necessary hurdle - it teaches you almost nothing.

ibgarrett · Joined: 04 Dec 2008 Posts: 138 Location: Westminster, CO

If you're looking for a book that is colorful, educational and entertaining all at the same time (and I promise that you'll learn something), check out Rod Machado's books. You'll find that you will read them just to be entertained and along the way you'll definitely learn something.

He doesn't have a Sport Pilot book out (yet?), but the Private Pilot one will definitely work.

Brian

Paul Hamilton · Joined: 21 May 2007 Posts: 340 Location: Reno/Tahoe Nevada

Rod does an excellent job of describing everything. I personally know Rod and use his materials as a reference. However, the biggest complaint is that Rod and all other private pilot training systems covers topics sport pilots do not need to know. This has always and will continue to be a problem with using private pilot materials to study for sport pilot. The reason and advantage for sport pilots is to make this process easier and simpler. Sport pilots do not need to study VOR/radio navigation, constant speed props, manifold pressure, non applicable aircraft/engine systems, standard category rules that only apply to a small percentage of classic LSA, mixture control (used on some LSA), turbos, retractable landing gear, 24 volt aircraft systems, vacuum pump/instruments, private pilot certificates (not sport), airspace speed restrictions, airspace rules only required for private or sport additional endorsement, etc. The list goes on and on.

Beware, not just Rod's, but all Private pilot training courses have about twice as much information, most irrelevant, to study and the sport pilot applicant does not know what to study and what to ignore. Be careful to not waste your time and study stuff you do not need.

ibgarrett · Joined: 04 Dec 2008 Posts: 138 Location: Westminster, CO

Paul - I think that argument could be used with any textbook meant to teach something, not just in the Sport Pilot world, but in any book geared toward teaching.

I studied (or should I say suffered) using the Gleim books. It was what our training facility sold, so I relied upon their judgment on what I should be using to study, and hoped that it would be the best out there. The material is so incredibly dry and does little if anything to convey the sense of learning that I'd hardly even consider it to be a teaching tool.

Granted Rod's Private Pilot books may cover WAY more material than necessary for a Sport, or even Private, pilot, but the way it's put together is highly conducive for learning (for me - lots of pretty colorful pictures) and even approaches being fun reading. So given that, what is the harm of there being too much information? Other than the time maybe necessary to consume that information, I think there's a strong argument to be said that having too much entertaining information to read will make us all better pilots rather than suffering through "just enough" information. If a person is looking to get into flying and only wants to read absolutely what is necessary - then just read the Practical Test Standards book and be done with it (and yes that's a bit of an exaggeration, but not far off from my point).

For that matter - the FAA and their Pilots Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge book and the companion Airplane Flying Handbook are a FAR better read than Gleims. They informative and colorful, and best of all - FREE. :D Free trumps a really expensive training book covering the same material any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Respectfully - Brian

Paul Hamilton · Joined: 21 May 2007 Posts: 340 Location: Reno/Tahoe Nevada

Brian,
I agree with you that the more the better. However, the BIGGEST complaint from sport pilot applicants is what to study to become a sport pilot. Most people want to study what will get them through the FAA tests and become a safe and confident pilot. They do not want to waste their time studying material that is irrelevant. This is not coming from me, this is what I have heard from hundreds of potential sport pilots.

You completely misunderstood what I said. Let me say this in another way.

First, I NEVER said study the minimum. I said private pilot materials have applicants studying material that is not relevant. In fact, I developed a training program that is specifically focused on the sport pilot and the light sport aircraft so people can learn the important information. This is more comprehensive than any other system to learn to fly and become a safe pilot.

Check out the FREE on line questions that get pilots through he stages of training and the ROTAX course based on the engines most LSA use.

www.aviationelearningcourses.com

Check out the educational and entertaining videos specifically for sport pilot training. Want humor, watch the Checkride DVD trailer.
http://lsapilot.beasportpilot.com/airplane-lsa-pilot/sport-airplane-video/

Check out the comprehensive training system that has books, entertaining/educational videos, CD's, everything specifically for the sport pilot. Everything the sport pilot needs to know to become a safe and confident pilot without the irrelevant information.
http://sport-pilot-training.com/hamilton-pilot-training/hamilton-sport-pilot/

Hopefully this will help you to understand that I did not say "study the minimum PTS".

Based on hundreds of complaints about private pilot training materials I wanted sport pilot applicents to understand that private pilot training materials have about twice the information they need to study.

Going back to your question "what is the harm of there being too much information?" The answer sport pilots have told me over the years is "they do not want it".

However there are the few, such as you and me, that want more and a broader background.

ibgarrett · Joined: 04 Dec 2008 Posts: 138 Location: Westminster, CO

Paul,

I would chalk myself up to being one of those people who complained about what to study - Gleim didn't make it any easier. I am an interactive learner, so just reading sometimes doesn't work for me. Not that it's a great big deal, but I probably spent a couple of hundred extra bucks buying extra pieces (including Gleim's miserable online version of their training).

This area is definitely evolving. I'm not sure how long your online portion of the training has been around - but it looks pretty good from what I've been able to do. I did find a few bugs in the system - I can share those with you offline if you'd like.

I'll have to pick up a couple of the DVD's that you've got there. The ROTAX one would definitely be good for me, even though the primary partner in the StingSport I just bought a 1/4 share of is a certified mechanic.

I actually have the Checkride DVD. (I didn't realize/connect that I was conversing with the author of it... silly me =D). Please please PLEASE tell me that the, er, butthead who showed up for his checkride without having even opened his training material was an exaggeration of the truth. I know I watched that DVD several times before doing my checkride. I was so paranoid about that portion of the exam it wasn't even funny.

I know (and appreciate that) you didn't say to study the minimum - I was exaggerating in the opposite direction from having too much to study. Basically an argument for people who are looking for the bare minimums to study make me a little concerned. In think a realistic example might be to have a comprehensive book that covers maybe more material than necessary, but then having a focused syllabus to study against. Maybe that's the happy medium.

From what I looked at on your site, it looks like you've done a good job of breaking down the SP/LSA study material into that happy medium. My main complaint is that there are so many "official" study programs out there that feel literally thrown together by people who think they are good at developing a training program and they wind up being an awful set of material. One of my biggest beefs with Gleim was their graphics and text were lifted from the main FAA training guide without any sort of enhancement. The graphics in particular looked as if they found a 1950's mimeograph of some charts/graphics, scanned it in and then used it in their publication.

Granted it may have gotten the information across, but why not take the time to re-draw it and maybe improve upon the information they are trying to communicate? Any other way to me is sloppy work. In an updated publication from the one I purchased, they at least tried to remedy it by including a color insert. It was an improvement to say the least, but given today's environment of interactive development, I was expecting far more available.

(Sorry - one more tangent and then I'll hush up. :D)

Even the AOPA's website has a far FAR better way of training over Gleim's - for FREE! Their interactive training courses are engaging and educational. I'm very happy that the FAAST program acknowledges their necessity and encourages people to partake in their ongoing training.

Bottom line is I think we are on the same page. I appreciate your ongoing efforts to improve the training environment, not just for the SP license, but for all of flying. I know I have and will continue to use the products as I need them.

Brian

Paul Hamilton · Joined: 21 May 2007 Posts: 340 Location: Reno/Tahoe Nevada

ibgarrett wrote:
I actually have the Checkride DVD. (I didn't realize/connect that I was conversing with the author of it... silly me =D). Please please PLEASE tell me that the, er, butthead who showed up for his checkride without having even opened his training material was an exaggeration of the truth. I know I watched that DVD several times before doing my checkride. I was so paranoid about that portion of the exam it wasn't even funny.

Brian, The Checkride DVD was all scripted and done to prove points. I should have put a disclaimer to say "no sport pilot applicents were failed during the filming of this DVD", "names were changed to protect the innocent" etc. The guy showing up unprepared is the same guy who showed up really prepared later.

One of the reasons I got into producing the sport pilot training materials was my frustration with figuring out what to study and knowing I could do better with what was/is out there.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1193 Location: Lock Haven PA

ibgarrett wrote: what is the harm of there being too much information?

No harm, as long as you don't drown while trying to drink from the fire hose.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1193 Location: Lock Haven PA

ibgarrett wrote: Gleim didn't make it any easier. I am an interactive learner,

As are most of my students, Brian. I currently use the Gleim sport pilot kit because it's very inexpensive, and contains some useful material. But, I supplement it with (free) additional material on my website, tailored to the interactive learner. Take a look at the PowerPoint flight briefers developed by Mike Belliner (of Mid Island Air Service) and myself, at http://avsport.org/cfi/pwrpoint.htm. This, plus the many training documents I provide at http://avsport.org/cfi/traindoc.htm, plus Gleim's (admittedly dry) books and CDs, seem to be sufficient to help my students pass the written, and the practical, and to become safe and competent pilots.

That said, Paul Hamilton's material is stellar. I would recommend it to anyone whose learning style it fits (no two students learn in exactly the same way). Only caveat is, it costs a lot more to produce (and hence to buy) multimedia training material than it does to print (and hence buy) books.

not2old2fly · Joined: 16 May 2010 Posts: 12 Location: Reno, NV

I'll admit the Gleim material is a bit dry, but it suits my style. Just the facts, ma'am! It's the course recommended by HoustonLSA, where I plan to start flying in a few months. Plus, the price is right.

Helen · Joined: 23 Apr 2007 Posts: 114 Location: Maryland

We use Rod's books with the Gleim supplies and it makes a robust and enjoyable training system. I've never had a DPE complain that a student of ours was not prepared for the oral and rarely do we have students who do not enjoy Rod's text. (The handful of students who are looking for something dryer we sell the FAA texts to.) Rod also has a sport pilot specific text in the works that I and some other NAFI folks are helping him edit. It will be half the cost of the private pilot text and sport pilot specific with all of the fun of the PP text. In the meantime though, it's hard to go wrong using his private pilot text.

Helen

RyanC · Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:15 pm Post subject:

I also studied for the Sport Pilot written test using the Gleim materials and found them, like others have said, dry but to the point. They take a "git-er-done" attitude and are not particularly enjoyable to read but contain just the information need to pass the test.

I whole-heartedly second Brian's recommendation above to get the FAA Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge and Airplane Flying Handbook. They're available free as PDF files on the FAA website but I also purchased them very inexpensively in nicely bound versions from Amazon. Not only are they extremely well-written (IMHO) and enjoyable to read but many of the questions that were on the test were taken verbatim from these materials. I really wish I had known that before I took it. :wink:

I'm also someone who likes to learn all I can about anything that interests me, regardless of pesky things like applicability. I've enjoyed reading about the inner workings of turbine engines in the AFH even though I know I'm a long way (if ever) from actually needing that information...

ibgarrett · Joined: 04 Dec 2008 Posts: 138 Location: Westminster, CO

Paul - thanks for pointing out those websites and the material. Oh how I wish I had that much structure for my training - I'd be willing to bet I could have shaved off several months off of my 14 that I spent getting my SP license. As I slogged through the Gleim material I would show up for my lessons not really sure what we were going to be doing (or why) other than just going flying.

While I'm a "pretty picture" kind of guy, I do like to have some structure or an outline to work off of. Granted there is plenty of material out there for that, but when I was just starting out (and I assume it is with most folks) I had really no idea what I needed, where to go and how to go about doing it. That is even long after I had spent months and months reading aviation publications like P&P, the EAA material and the AOPA material.

I guess the ultimate point that I want to make is through my interactions with Gleim, they just seemed oblivious to how dry/poor their material was, and when I pointed it out to them they seemed to be caught off guard. So given that, for an organization that sells training material, they should at least strive to achieve a high level of efficient training that is effective and engaging.

That is all of course, in my opinion. :D