Are LSA's viable for x-country flying?

[1TEN9]

Hello all--

I recently emerged from my cave and discovered the world of Light Sport Aviation. I grew up flying GA aircraft with my dad but I completely lost touch with General Aviation when I started flying for the airlines 16 years ago. I have been scouring this and other sites for information about this new (to me) type of aircraft and I'm totally intrigued. These aircraft are modern and seemingly economical to operate. They are much more exciting than the 152's and 172's I flew way back when. I plan to get checked out in one and I'm considering purchasing one. There is so much knowledge on this forum I figured it's a great place to ask questions. I have so many questions but I'll narrow it down to a couple for now:

1) Is a typical LSA viable for 200-300nm cross country flights? I know they easily have the range but being light and having a large wing do you get beat to death en route? I live in Nevada and I'd like to use it to fly to Southern California and Arizona.

2) Can anyone estimate their typical yearly maintenance costs sans any unpredicted items? Annuals and oil changes seem very reasonable. I'm wondering if there are any gotchas I'm missing.

Any and all information beyond these two questions is welcome and greatly appreciated. These aircraft are so cool I'm excited to learn more. Thank you in advance.

Marty

[zaitcev]

1) Is a typical LSA viable for 200-300nm cross country flights? I know they easily have the range but being light and having a large wing do you get beat to death en route? I live in Nevada and I'd like to use it to fly to Southern California and Arizona.

I took Remos GX on 200nm trips. It works well for that. I'm going to take it to Denver (FTG) on May 19 for the Rocky Mountain LSA Expo, it's 330 nm one way for me.

The biggest downsides for LSA travel is the limited payload and speed. If you travel alone and you're not in a hurry, they work fine. If you want to take your wife to a resort, get a Cirrus.

In my experience, the speed in relation to the aircraft weight is what determines the severity of bumps. I mostly fly Arrow these days and in places I have to slow down to 100..105 kts to keep wings attached. It's quite noticeable now much faster you can go in smooth air. Since LSAs are slow by nature, bumps are not as badly felt.

[roger lee]

The LSA is absolutely good for cross country travel. that said it also depends on which LSA which makes a huge difference. The 360 Flight Design CT's in the US alone fly all over the country, plus Canada, the Bahama's and Mexico.
Each year in October the CT group has a big family style fly in at Page, AZ and we come from all over the country. The Flight Design has speed, cabin room, luggage room and plenty of fuel.

[ibgarrett]

Marty,

Welcome back into the aviation fold. I definitely can echo the comments about the range/cross country flying in the LSA's. In fact my wife and I are planning a 680nm trip down to Fredericksburg TX next month. We've also flown from Denver to Omaha and back over a weekend and I've flown up to the north central part of South Dakota and back in a single day from the Denver metro area (9 full hours of flying that day - *phew*).

I also will second the Rocky Mountain Light Sport Aircraft Expo coming up on May 19th and 20th. As one of the planners of the expo I can tell you that we should have a pretty good selection of LSA Vendors and LSA's to look at. We've got 14 of our booths sold with both high and low-wing planes. It should definitely be a good event.

Thanks to everyone for helping pass the word on the expo along - I for one really appreciate the support.

Brian

[zaitcev]

By the way, check this - http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?p=11216#11216

[1TEN9]

It is great to hear the LSA is a useful cross country machine. Any other recommendations on LSA models? My cursory search so far has the Evekor Sports Star and the Sting TL-2000 floating to the top. Ideally it would be nice to be able to indicate 120 knots at normal cruise but I imagine that is tough with a normally aspirated engine. I talked to the owner of a flight school in San Diego and he said 100KIAS at 6,500-7,500' on 3.8gph is normal in his Gobosh. Does that sound right?

Like I said I have tons of questions, sorry if they seem random. I'm trying to fill in some blanks. Can you mix avgas and auto fuel in an LSA if auto fuel is not available at your destination? Can I legally fly an instrument approach if need be? Can I hold a sport pilot certificate in addition to my ATP? Since I fly for a living I'd rather not jeopardize the ATP if I can hold two certificates. If not that would answer question 2

Thank you for the responses. Please keep them coming. I haven't been excited about flying in a long time. It's refreshing to hear from people who love to fly.

Marty

[Jack Tyler]

Marty, you are asking some excellent Q's...and there are many more still to ask. Here are a few more general A's for you to consider:
1. Each LSA is somewhat unique (even when they look very similar). Examples that might not initially come to mind might be the health (biz viability) of the mfgr. who makes or imports the a/c (you wouldn't want to buy an a/c and then find it orphaned, would you?) and how you physically 'fit' in the a/c for those longer trips (peripheral viz, seat adjustability and/or pedal adjustability can vary greatly). So how do you get specific A's for a given a/c in which you are interested?
2. One excellent wau is to attend one of the LSA Expos, as mentioned. Contact the dealers ahead of time, seek a demo flight (a very reasonable request), and spend some extended time inside each a/c of interest when at the show. Similarly, you'll find other LSA owners will attend these events, in part flying LSA's you might not know about. Prowl the ramps and milk the owners for info, as they'll have (their) real world A's to your Q's.
3. Understand that you are directly tied to what a given mfgr. is willing to allow in its LSA model. No 337's, STC's, PMA's or other third-party, entrepreneurial opportunities to do special things or expand the functionality of the a/c without the mfgr's specific approval. Some mfgr's are much more forthcoming about one-time approvals (e.g. to add that VOR instrument you might need for an instrument approach) while others are less so. For this reason, let me also add...
4. Any S-LSA can be reclassified with the FAA as an E-LSA by its owner; it's an administrative procedure after which you have the flexibility, the benefits and the liabilities of flying an Experimental. The more your flying diverges from the mainstream (and what a mfgr might feel comfortable authorizing) and/or the broader you wish your flight privileges, the more useful this conversion might be for you.

Since your initial inquiry emphasized cross-country flying, let's be fair and add for balance that these light, small a/c are not optimized for that kind of use. Do-able? Absolutely. Comfortable? Depends on the weather & the individual model's ergonomics. (I've found some of them not very comfortable, and pretty noisy). Perhaps a good analogy is how one would use a touring motorcycle: great when the wx is nice, not very desirable when the wx is not.

Enjoy the search and the neat folks you'll meet along the way...

[bryancobb]

Sump'n just...I say, Sump'n just don't add up! I know Son...I say I know.
Fig-urz don't lie.

An 18 yr airline pilot who is asking these type questions? I'm not seeing it.

[jnmeade]

Marty,

I've flown my Flight Design CTSW from eastern Iowa to Tampa (900 nm) in one day and back in another and to Denver (600 nm) and back, same deal. On the other hand, needed to fly to Texas (700 nm) a couple of times and had to drive because the weather wasn't suitable. In my T210 days, I'd have just filed and flown.
My CTSW will do very close to 120 KIAS at cruise (this is a function of prop pitch) and will burn about 6.3 gph doing so. At 112 or so KIAS I'll burn about 5.3 gph. Burns 91 octane and even 10% ethanol. I have autopilot and a better panel than you had when you started flying airliners. Light wing loading can mean bumps if you're stuck under the Q's.
Cabin size and configuration is quite variable and your desires/needs will make a big difference in what plane is right for you.
You are absoltutely right to be interested in costs. You should ask each manufacturer about any scheduled maintenance issues. For example, my CT requires the wings pulled every two years. Not a big deal, just saying. Rotax wants hose changes every 5 years (FAA is addressing this "mandatory" aspect) and it will run you over a couple of thousand dollars.
In addition, you may desire brake or wheel upgrades, etc. These may require an LOA if not already approved. The parachute needs to be repacked every 6 years and that will be somewhere in the vicinity of $1k. Props need to be refurbished, etc.
Still, it's a lot cheaper than standard certifiied planes.
I took mine Experiemental and do most of my own maintenance. If you wish to do your own maintenance on an SLSA, a 120 hours course lets you do it even for hire (about $4k for the course) or if you are ELSA a two day course lets you sign off (don't confuse this with E-AB which still takes the manufacturer (builder) or an A&P).
Good questions.

[1TEN9]

Wow. You guys sure give some detailed answers (and even an insult questioning my professional flying career)! Thanks for taking the time to write such thoughtful answers. Like I said, its planned use would be 200-300nm flights in the southwest states on only the nicest days which sounds very doable according the responses here. I can airline on lousy days or long legs.

The costs seem about what I had forecast. It is now time to rent a few and check them out.....

--Marty

[bryancobb]

Wow. You guys sure give some detailed answers (and even an insult questioning my professional flying career)! Thanks for taking the time to write such thoughtful answers. Like I said, its planned use would be 200-300nm flights in the southwest states on only the nicest days which sounds very doable according the responses here. I can airline on lousy days or long legs.

The costs seem about what I had forecast. It is now time to rent a few and check them out.....

--Marty

Marty, I never insulted your flying career! I just said it didn't "add up" that an 16 year professional airline pilot would be wondering if a small plane like an LSA would "beat you to death" in the air, and if they are viable for 300 mile XC's, and if they are expensive to own.

The questions just seemed a little out of place. That's all I said. Sorry if I offended. I was being Foghorn-Leghorn humorous.

[1TEN9]

Bryan--

No problem. I love Foghorn-Leghorn!

You have to understand the last piston powered plane I flew was in 1996 and that was a Cessna 310R when I flew part 135 cargo. To say I'm out of touch with GA is an understatement (remember TRSAs and ARSAs?). If you want me to explain to you how to efficiently fly an RNAV arrival using VNAV and autothrottles to an RNAV RNP approach using the HGS as a backup in a Boeing 737, I'm your man. Want me to plan a VFR flight to Bermuda Dunes? I'm not your man, at this point. I'd prefer people assume I know nothing because that's basically how I feel about GA right now. Airline flying is a totally different world. It's fun re-learning this aspect of aviation.

Have a great weekend!

--Marty

[bryancobb]

Straight up!
I'll be a little more serious.

1) LSA's are expensive to own and maintain. Similar to 60's and 70's vintage Cessnas and Pipers.

2) The beat you up in the air if you are beneath the clouds. Once above the top extents of the clouds they are smooth just like 152's and 172's. (I'm talking about VFR clouds not about the ceiling)

3) They are viable for VC if you are at peace with landing to get gas, and not carrying much stuff with you , just like 152's and 172's.

[ibgarrett]

Well, I would challenge those bullet items.

1 - "LSA's are expensive to own and maintain." Compared to what? Are we talking about a used Piper or Cessna that costs $35k and has 4,000 hours on it? If you are comparing a brand-new LSA to a brand-new GA airplane, the LSA is going to win EVERY time. Now if you're talking a used plane, that gets a little more complicated. Sure you can buy a 25 year old used, 4-place GA plane for $35k to $50k, but it is going to have old instrumentation and need some love to keep it going. Similarly you can buy a used LSA that is 5 years old for the same price - but odds are the avionics in it will be MUCH newer and the LSA is going to have far less time on the plane.

So the real question on this is what metrics are you using to determine LSA's are expensive to own and maintain?

2 - "The (sic) beat you up in the air if you are beneath the clouds." Again - I was up in a 4-place Beachcraft V-tail and we were getting knocked around a bunch. So to say that you get beat up in the air under any conditions is going to depend completely upon the weather in the time and location. If you are flying as a Sport Pilot, being on top of the clouds isn't going to be an option. If you are flying as a Private there's a little more. While LSA's can be equipped for IFR flight are not rated for flight into known IFR conditions, so flying through the clouds to get on top isn't an option. So again - what metrics are you using to make such a blanket statement?

3 - I own a StingSport LSA and I can fly 3hrs at 100kts x-country. If I fly at 90kts I can safely go for 4hrs. I don't know about anyone else - but I sure don't mind getting out and stretching a bit after sitting for four hours - no matter what size of LSA or GA plane I've been riding in. And in the Sting I can fly with my wife and myself with full fuel and full luggage. If you're looking to haul a lot of stuff around in an LSA, take a look at the Jabiru (http://www.usjabiru.com/). There's at least two or three in my area and they have a MASSIVE amount of cargo space and a useful load to support it. Not all planes can be all things to all people - so you have to pick a plane for the mission. If you're carrying four people all the time - then a GA plane is going to be a must, but if you're looking for a weekend getaway plane for you and one other, then an LSA is a great alternative.

So, just to recap - can LSA's be expensive? Yup - you bet. I'd be lying if I said otherwise, however what are we comparing it against? Is it fair to compare a brand-new $120k LSA to a 30-year-old GA plane with 4,000 on the engine? I think not. Can the weather conditions be unfavorable for any GA plane? Yup, so to elude that LSA's are unique for being a rough ride is misleading. And range and load can be mission-dependent...

Respectfully,

Brian

[bryancobb]

Looks like what YOU are saying is exactly what I'm saying.

1) 60's/70s vintage Cessna or Piper
2) Flying above scattered clouds is NOT VFR ON TOP.
3) I said "if you don't have a hangup" with landing to get gas