Bummed in San Diego

stevenr · Post by **stevenr** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:35 pm

My local flying club has two light sports. My favorite (a 2011 Sportcruiser) is out of service after someone made a hard landing and banged up the gear, prop and Rotax.

The other (a brand new Piper Sport) with less than 100 hours never seems to be flyable. For the 2nd time, I wasn't able to fly because the canopy wouldn't close properly.

And even if these planes were up and running, the planes are unbearable to fly because it gets so hot under the glass canopy.

I'm not sure what to do.

I'm not aware of any other LSA's to rent in the area, other than a 1947 Champ that has no starter, transponder or electrical system. It does rent for $65/hr though.

(I'm going to take a lesson in the Champ Sunday and maybe go for my tailwheel endorsement).

Any suggestions on finding an LSA to share or rent from a private owner.

Jim Stewart · Post by **Jim Stewart** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:18 am

I'd go with the Champ.

drseti · Post by **drseti** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:18 am

From what you say, I conclude that either your club isn't maintaining its planes properly, or other club members are abusing them. In either case, this should be a red flag. Aircraft availability notwithstanding, why would you want to fly their aircraft?

As for heat in the summer, there's a relatively inexpensive device called a Kroger Sun Shade that keeps most bubble canopies tolerable. If your club doesn't have those installed on the Sport Cruisers, maybe they should consider adding them.

Yes, LSA availability is an issue in much of the country. It's still a relatively young industry, with high initial start-up costs. And renting from a private owner is usually not feasible, since the owner's insurance costs would then typically go up by a factor of five. A partnership probably makes the most sense for folks in your situation -- this has been discussed extensively in other threads on this forum.

Good luck! For now, I agree that you should fly the Champ.

stevenr · Post by **stevenr** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:43 am

Our club has a very good reputation. I've just had bad luck with the one Piper Sport.

And the plane gets very hot, even on cool days here (cool is 60 degrees in San Diego), and it really never gets too hot here (only up to 85 on hot days).

I think I just need to look for a high wing airplane.

Do you think it's safe to fly in a 1947 Champ that is well maintained? If I love that plane, it might be my answer.

drseti · Post by **drseti** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:16 pm

stevenr wrote:Do you think it's safe to fly in a 1947 Champ that is well maintained?

Absolutely! The key is well maintained. That plane is almost as old as I am. Thanks to my cardiologist, I'm well maintained -- why shouldn't the plane be as safe as I am?

stevenr · Post by **stevenr** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:57 pm

How can you judge whether a plane is being maintained well? Do you look at things like cosmetics? The plane looks pretty tired.

drseti · Post by **drseti** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:11 pm

stevenr wrote:How can you judge whether a plane is being maintained well? Do you look at things like cosmetics? The plane looks pretty tired.

Cosmetics tell you very little, beyond the age of the plane (which is a given in this case). You should ask to see the engine and airframe logbooks. Is every annual inspection logged? Are the Airworthiness Directives documented? Has the engine been receiving regular oil and filter changes? Regular compression checks? If the compression numbers are not logged with every annual, or if AD compliance is not documented, these would be red flags. If repairs are mentioned, are they detailed, in a manner that makes it clear what exactly was done? How often are tires replaced? Brakes? Other common wear items? For major repairs (which are bound to have happened over the past 65 years), are there copies of the FAA Form 337 present with the logbooks? How many hours is the plane flying every year? (More is actually better than too few.) How many hours since the last engine overhaul? Have there been prop replacements (possibly indicating a prop strike?) Has the plane been ground-looped? (Not at all unusual for taildraggers, and not a problem as long as properly logged and repaired).

Next, can you talk to some others who have flown this particular plane? They may be able to tell you about things that don't appear in the logbooks.

These old planes don't have to be pretty to be safe, but they do require a lot of attention and TLC.

Mark Gregor · Post by **Mark Gregor** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:42 pm

steve

As you are finding out its hard to seperate the facts and opinions.

Many veteran pilots dont mind flying old airplanes but I find most newer pilots prefer something from this century. Myself included. When I showed my wife the 1969 skyhawk I was taking lessons in with the original faded orange interior she was less than thrilled and mentioned she likely would not be riding in it. I believe the plane was very well maintained although it didnt give that impression to the average person.
Us newer pilots are more fashion conscious. Its definitely harder to get someone to go with you in an old rough looking plane. So yes just because its old doesnt mean it isnt well maintained but planes that look well taken care of are more likely to be well taken care of.
This is one of the points I make regularly to schools. You have to have something nice if you want to attract the younger generation and we NEED younger pilots or GA is going to die.
This is where light sport fits in although it would be nice if we could get another couple hundred lbs gross weight so a little more durability could be built into the planes.

Jake

designrs · Post by **designrs** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:51 pm

The flight school that I fly at has 2 going on 3 PiperSports.
I've know these planes since 50 or 100 hours.
Planes now have about 700 hours on them.

They fly nearly all day, daily (weather permitting) and have proven to be reliable aircraft, even with many student pilot lanings and use. The owner is fantastic with maintence.

The PiperSport / SportCruiser needs the optional vent scoops installed (simple plastic parts with adhesive backing) so that you get proper venting, especially while climbing doing pattern work.

The sunshade overhead helps too, but I don't like it in the pattern blocking view when banking.

Ventilation on the ground can be facilitated by leaving the canopy unlatched with an elbow propping it open. Easier with 2 pilots.

** Extreme care must be taken to latch the canopy properly. **
Check all 3 latch points EVERY time you close the canopy, at runup, and before take off. If you close it... LATCH IT!! Make sure that your headphone wires are not wrapped around the hatch release.

Great planes. I want to buy one!

Mark Gregor · Post by **Mark Gregor** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:00 pm

A good example of a progressive flight school.

I would bet if the flight school had three old 150's they would be getting near the same use.

By the way my tecnam P2008 has excellent cabin ventilation. The prop wash pressurizes the side window vents so anytime the engine is running you can get good strong blast of blast of air aimed where you like. ( not cold air though )

Jake

designrs · Post by **designrs** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:03 pm

jake wrote:I would bet if the flight school had three old 150's they would be getting near the same use.

Nope... mostly young guys that come for the modern aircraft.

Mark Gregor · Post by **Mark Gregor** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:20 pm

designrs,

Are most of the students recreational flyers or?

What do you think of the sportcruiser and have you flown any other lightsports?

Jake

designrs · Post by **designrs** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:51 pm

Yes I believe most are student pilots and recreational pilots flying for fun under LSA. A few might be training for the private pilot but using the LSA to do so.

I've trained in several LSA's:
Evektor SportStar
Jihlavan/Skyleader Kappa KP6
Tecnam Sierra
Sky Arrow (just went for a short ride)
PiperSport/SportCruiser

Personally, I really like the PiperSport/SportCruiser being partial to low-wing, all metal, glass panel, and an exciting package. I think it's well made. It's proven to be reasonably rugged to student landings. Cockpit is wide. Performance and useful load are good. Nothing tricky or surprising about flying it. It is a little sensitive in pitch but you quickly get used to it. Got to be careful about the canopy latch... but it's not the only aircraft with that concern. To me you've got to look at both mission and also an aircraft that provides the most enjoyable experience for you.

It was super appealing when it was backed by the Piper name, although support has always been from Czech Sport Aircraft.

I have not seen Bristell yet... but am anxious to do so!

Mark Gregor · Post by **Mark Gregor** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:23 pm

I think the sportcruiser is a good looking plane. The wide cabin adds to its desireablity.

Although some of the small cabin LSAs are well built, americans do not fit very well in these small narrow cabins. One of the main reasons the CTLS is popular. The Tecnams are very well built planes but other than the P2008 the cabins are just too small.

flyboy2007 · Post by **flyboy2007** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:45 pm

That 47 champ is a lot more fun and grass roots than all that new junk! I think once you get used to it you will love it.