Students perspective

[yozz25]

ok, here goes.

Anyone who has been reading my posts possibly realizes that I am a difficult student, or perhaps I'm not, but a controversial one.

The 2 older instructors I've had I can just chalk up, too freakin anal for me, no sense of humor, heavy handed, unpleasant. The young one's I've had had more patience, more humor, more my speed. This is my experience.

I happen to like young people, they are not yet bitter.

Ok, enuff said.

Now that I have a younger instructor in the Remos, I have a dilemma that the school is not adequately experienced with the Remos.

This school is very progressive, very "out there". They have a large fleet, many instuctors and out there as far as promoting the Remos goes.

So far, perhaps myself and maybe another one or two are doing remos training.

From reading some of the posts here I learned some things about the remos, lsa's etc. I spoke with my young instructor this week, we are grounded due to very high gusts, and mentioined our power on stall where the wing made an abupt dip. He admitted that it was a bit on the hairy side. I believe we almost spun.

He said he is still familiarizing himself with the craft, only has a few hours. He admitted that he has to bone up on the requirements for the student. This may explain the puzzled look on his face while training, he is actually watching the performance himself.

I suggested gently that perhaps we should have powered on gently to max of 65 percent power. He nodded his agreement, he seems pretty honest, but has to hold his tongue, since he does work for someone.

I don't want him to get in trouble with his boss but not having a well briefed instructor kind of irked me. I bit my tongue, office politics are involved here.

I believe and correct me if I'm wrong, that this school needs to drill it's CfI on the lsa. They seem to be confused. They should not pretend to know all there is to know about this craft, or type of craft, or type of training needed.

Since I'm paying good money for this, and probably a premium, as a consumer, I feel that the value is not in par. If I'm going to be a guinea pig, let it be on their dime, not mine.

I expect the person addressing me, teaching me, should know a bit more about the lsa experience as well as the regs involved in what is needed.

One thing the CFI does not do, which disappoints me, is to look at my log book before anything, it's a quick 5 minute look, can't hurt, can only help. When a student tells you he has 20 hours, look at the book, even if it is to humor him.

Any thoughts?
yozz

[bryancobb]

Get used to what you are getting now!

You are not gonna find a flight school that is a well-greased wheel, with well-trained instructors who are all on the same sheet of music.

This is true throughout aviation, especially in Light Sport stuff.

Embry Riddle University, like other aviation colleges probably DO do it like you speak of. All of the "drink-from-a-firehose" type schools probably have it set up that way also.

The local airport DOES NOT. You are at the mercy of the instructors who are available. There are good/great/bad ones. They may or may not have a lot of experience instructing, and probably have no formal training beyond the FAA requirements. You may like who you get. You may not! When you narrow that down even further, to Remos instructors, YOU BETTER LEARN TO LIVE WITH WHAT YOU HAVE.

Flush being a difficult student. If you really want to be a pilot, start reading everything you can, to learn all you can, before you go to the airport. The FAA publications are GREAT! FREE! and they have easy to understand explanations and superb graphics.

It's not your instructor's job to do the part that your home-study should do. 20% of the effort spent should be the instructor's. The other 80% should be the studen's.

[yozz25]

Guess you are right Brian. Have to work with what I have, but also have to be a savy consumer.

I do do much reading, and realize that there are shortcomings in the schools. I do, once I become more proficient, on taking spin training, just to do it, to get the feel of the actual spin and actual recovery, I hope.

I realize this school is a business, but if I can possibly, and tactfully give a little input, on my perspective, it would first help me, then others. I take care of myself first.

Again, this type of craft is new to what most Cfi's handle. Quite light, so I guess my guy is not going to do full power stalls anymore.

I know what you mean about your own study, my eyeballs are ready to fall out. And I do realize that these kids are working for peanuts considering the amount of time and money they put in for the designation.

I'm learning as much about the "business" of flying/schools as much as the flying part, it is indeed an adult education course indeed.

yozz

[ct4me]

I can't agree totally with Mr. Cobb, although I will agree that the student needs to do a bunch of their own outside studying...

CFIs who haven't gotten really up-to-speed on LSAs have been a big problem in the LSA world. Unfortunately, many have suffered from the same syndrome that a lot of high-time pilots have..."I've got a bunch of hours and I can fly anything" syndrome. They don't bother to get trained/checked-out properly, or find out the subtle differences that the LSAs exhibit. Or fully understand the characteristics of each different model of LSA.
Reviews of the last 4 years of accidents prove the point. Many of the accidents happened during instruction! Insurance companies adjusted their policies, increasing their training requirements. Most manufacturers have beefed up their "transition training" programs.
Many CFIs use the exact same setup and landing procedures for 172s as LSAs.
When it comes to LSA training YOZZ25 is right... some CFIs get it, some don't. You can tell the ones that do... they hang out on the various LSA forums and participate. The know the LSA rules/regs. The also know enough about LSAs to explain the maintenance and certification differences... and documentation and service bulletin differences.
I started training with an old-timer who had many tens-of-thousands of hours... a grumbling hand-slapper who didn't think women should fly and groaned about "plastic" airplanes. I chose not to use him for my LSA training, but he would have gladly done it - without ever going to one LSA forum, or even looking up the regulations.
Keep up the search YOZZ25, you'll find someone who really has a zest for LSAs, and even owns and flys his/her own LSA.
Tim

[AndyJ]

Definitely take your concerns to the FBO owner. Clearly he needs to identify a few CFIs who are excited and willing to learn the Remos, and get them comfortable with it. Otherwise, the airplane really isn't going to move much. If it's a leaseback, the owners will quickly get upset and pull the airplane off the line, which means everyone loses.

[yozz25]

Thanks you other guys for the input.

Kinda makes me think.

The insurance issue. wow. Having been with an insurance regulatory agency for my career, I kind of respect the knowledge, or rather stats accumulated by the underwriters. If anyone knows what is really going on, these people are the ones.

Accidents during training, that is bothersome. I'm going to have to call my contacts at the job to contact the major underwriter and try to get some hard data on this. AIG I guess is the biggy here. I didn't do much with aviation products in my career, but I respect their input.

The question would be is it the nature of the craft, or the lack qualified trainers or both?

If it is inherent with the craft, then something is rotten in Denmark. To lower health standards, then put newbies, mostly geezers, in craft that is not as safe as the old reliables out there, 172's warriors and the other birds, is kind of "cockeyed" as I see it. Better to just raise the limits of weight on the sports job, keep the limits of daytime, one passenger, etc, and let me use the ticket to fly lets say the DA-20,, which I believe is more stable.

Yeah that would kill the lsa boys, but it would maybe kill less of us, or the lsa boys would put out heavier craft.

As for the training, well my school here is the only game in town with lsa so far. I was going to "commute" down to scottsdale, but at my tender age, I realize that I just can't deal with four hours of intense flight each day. Easy flight yes, intense concentration, no.

Here I can go out twice a week, absorb what I've done, think about it, then recoup and go again.

So, the practical thing in my case would be to first make sure the plane is in good shape, make sure on each inspection the wings are properly attached, the airlerons or flaps are working, and ask if they plane was put away for storage. I literally have to make sure they maintain it. This is a state where you can't penetrate the corporate veil, and places unregulated close up in a flash. One good crash, due to faulty maintenance, and perhaps there will be an empty office.

As for the CFI, I have to subtley ask them to get these fellows more training and perhaps volunteer to even go with them to lsa events.

I do believe the plane is indeed a leaseback, and I see that only perhaps one other is taking lessons.

Living in vegas is a trip, lots of flash, lots of glimmer, you really can't trust many people especially when they promise you the world, they sell you the sizzle, leave out the steak. Also, keep in mind that this is where the legendary the Silver State Helicopter routine got started , I guess some of you heard of them, typical vegas story, all flash and promises, no dellivery as the story goes. I won't mention the man's name.

I look at all business here with the same eye, including my flight place, too much glimmer puts my antennae up. So now you know the rest of the story, why I constantly question things.
yozz

[19rotary68]

Yozz:
I believe I have a very different take on Instructors. I have "went" through 4 different Flight schools (PCS and TDY Military) and about 2-3 Instructors each place.
I found the "younger" fellows to be somewhat quick to frustration, and some down right arrogant....to, a veil of superiority.
On the other side, there too, I found a couple older "geezers" (your term), to also be "nutted up" on their ego's as well.
However, they say, that sometimes "you have to kiss a few frogs first"...ya know the rest. I wasn't looking for "Perfection" in Instructors, just a good instructor-that perhaps could "put up with me too"!

I came across a gentleman, who I would guess, is about 60 years of age, and he is one darn good instructor. I guess this business of age, cuts both ways.
I'm no standout student, however, I consider myself quite fortunate to be able to receive training from this fellow....I'm 26.

Although I am training in a Challenger w/503, (and @ x's a Quicksilver GT 500) there are some things I detest: like the "flaperon" business....but, I endeavor to Listen, and Study that darn thing's characteristics(Challenger)-it's my job as a Student, My Money and my Welfare.
Once I settled down to this "acceptance"-everything else just seemed to come together.

BTW, I'm a "Novice" in civilian a/c (especially fixed wing), and loving it now, and grateful for this "Old Geezer of an Instructor".
Good Hunting (Flying) to you Yozz.
Rotary

[yozz25]

Well, as they say, the beat goes on.

Tuesday I report, winds willing, for another attempt at the sky, and we'll see where this all leads to with the young instructor.

Hopefully things fall into place, he bones up, or I help hiim, get to know the rules, he gets used to the plane and all goes well.

One day at a time.

I just report my observations and realize that I have to work to fill in gaps when necessary. These FBO's or whatever are simply businesses and its the luck of the draw. Anal is out.

So this fellow is pleasant, but needs to bone up a bit, so well handle that as we go along.

All I want to do is have some fun in the learning process, that's all, want to look forward to a pleasant experience.

yozz

[FastEddieB]

All I want to do is have some fun in the learning process, that's all, want to look forward to a pleasant experience.

First, an anecdote:

When I went to be trained as a Cirrus Standardized Instructor in Duluth, my instructor was a young lady. I had far more time and experience that she did, both in general and in the Cirrus.

On my first approach to landing, she told me I was "way too high". I completed the landing (on or near the numbers, by the way) and she went on to tell me how she wanted "normal" approaches. She wanted them power-on, and approaching the 3º glideslope/VASI.

Did I argue?

No - I said "Yes, ma'am" and did them her way for the rest of the training.

Afterwards, I explained to her the reasons I preferred high finals, and showed her in the Cirrus Training Manual that either of our techniques were acceptable.

What's my point?

At some point you're going to have to relax and put yourself in an instructor's hands. Until you do, you will continue to be frustrated and progress will be extremely difficult.

I don't mean just "shutting up" - a good instructor should always be open to suggestions.

But, assuming we grew up in about the same era, maybe its time to "lighten up and go with the flow...man"



More to follow...

[tadel001]

The FAA requires an instructor provide SP training in an LSA to have 5 hours in make and model before instructing. AFS-610 has even gone so far as to require that to be solo time. You instructor should have taken that plane up for at least 5 hours and done all the maneuvers several times each. If the instructor does have the 5 hours solo time but just used that time to fly around sightseeing, then your instructor shouldn't be instructing.

Good luck.

[yozz25]

Eddie:

I don't argue with these people, I vent here. I simply observe them, and come here to express my feelings and thoughts, something many people are afraid to do.

Krusty, the tomahawk man, was full of aero knowledge, but I don't like being insulted when in air, and don't like someone who doesn't listen to my concerns when we get down,and I don't like flying in his plane where I'm told not to touch this and that. I don't like being told how to adjust my seat leaving me far from the rudder. A real schmuck. He is an independent. Then I went to scottsdale to try the remos, great patient and pretty instructor.

The next fellow, early 50's, a real nuts and bolts type, anal as hell, no sense of humor, and heavy handed on my hands. Like your experience, he insisted on his type of landing. Then went to FAR book and read from it, as if for the first time the maneuvers needed for the sports ticket. Another schmuck.

This was in the current school I'm at now and I changed him to the guy I'm with now. Apparently this school is a bit ahead of itself, people assigned to teach remos should get up in the plane, look over the plane, play with the plane, on the FBO's dime/time before taking a guinea pig, me, up.

So out of about 6 instructors, I met 2 schmucks who need to learn to chill a bit, sip some tea, smoke some dope and listen to the music. I need some peace when flying, and a piece here and there too.

An old fart like me has earned the right to be discerning. I am no longer the young recruit from years gone by that was dedicated to any drill meister who told me how high to jump. I respect the knowledge, but the anal stuff works better with youngins.

Hey, why they call you fast eddie?

yozz

[roger lee]

As of April 2nd an instructor no longer needs 5 hours.

[FastEddieB]

Hey, why they call you fast eddie?

It's a nickname my ex-wife gave me on our honeymoon!

[KSCessnaDriver]

The FAA requires an instructor provide SP training in an LSA to have 5 hours in make and model before instructing. AFS-610 has even gone so far as to require that to be solo time.

Kind of an irrelevant question, but do you have a source saying that it has to be solo time? I'm just interested to see this on paper, as I find it hard to believe. Thankfully, the rules do change on 2 April, so the 5 hours PIC goes away, in order to instruct.

[yozz25]

Common sense should dictate rather than rules.

Before getting in the small plane, bone up on it, skim over the poh, ask some questions, then take a ride and practice some of the nasty stuff so you don't end up scaring the daylights out of your students causing the brand new seats to brown up.

If a school needs a guinea pig it's only fair to go to the pet store, buy one, put headphones and goggles on him/her and take it up. If it craps on your seat, then either put diapers on it, or don't use full power on stalls.

Must have been a quick honeymoon, fast eddie, but the wife is still wit ya, so you can't be all that fast. Gotta use your flaps a bit to slow down.

yozz