Falling back in love with Light Sport

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TimTaylor
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Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport

Post by TimTaylor »

My point was that a person might want to think twice about the purchase of an E-LSA vs an S-LSA because you don't know how well it may have been maintained by someone with little or no training or experience. I questioned how you could evaluate. It's a valid point. While I would not hesitate to buy a E-LSA from FastEddie, I would not be as comfortable buying an E-LSA from someone I didn't know. If you don't agree, fine.
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Wm.Ince
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Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport

Post by Wm.Ince »

TimTaylor wrote:My point was that a person might want to think twice about the purchase of an E-LSA vs an S-LSA because you don't know how well it may have been maintained by someone with little or no training or experience.
Concur and understand that. I used to think that way, but have changed my position somewhat.
TimTaylor wrote:I questioned how you could evaluate. It's a valid point. While I would not hesitate to buy a E-LSA from FastEddie, I would not be as comfortable buying an E-LSA from someone I didn't know. If you don't agree, fine.
That’s better. And yes . . . it is a valid point.

Okay, here’s how I would evaluate.

If I were in the market for an ELSA, or for that matter, any light airplane, there are 2 things which would determine the maintenance status of the aircraft.

1) Detailed historical records; i.e. past/current equipment lists, current weight and balance, MRA’s/LOA’s, current aircraft/engine manuals, compliance with safety diectives (alerts, bulletins, instructions), logbook entries and completed annual condition/100 hour inspection checklists for airframe and engine. If the owner has kept good records on the aircraft and seems very knowledgable, all the better. If the owner cannot produce those records, that’s a deal breaker. HE MAY OR MAY NOT BE THE MECHANIC. Just because he owns an ELSA, that doesn’t mean he maintains it (or does the maintenance on it). He may continue to have professionals do that and the airplane may be in great condition. Some owners do that. The whole point here is, records say a lot about how well the aircraft has been taken care of. Fact is, just because it’s an SLSA, that doesn’t mean it has been cared for any better than most ELSA’s. Again . . . check the records.

2) A thorough, physical inspection of the airplane, to include all its major components, by an experienced and competent (professional) mechanic/surveyor, who is very familiar with the type and model.
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Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport

Post by drseti »

Wm.Ince wrote: What would be the best indicator of whether good maintenance was done to an ELSA?
Same as for an SLSA or a certified aircraft - start with a very thorough examination of the aircraft and engine maintenance records, by someone who knows exactly what to look for. Careless or incomplete documentation is a good indicator if possible shoddy maintenance. Start by reviewing my webinar "What's In Your Logbooks?" online at:

http://avsport.org/webinars/videos/LSA_ ... tation.mp4
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FastEddieB
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Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport

Post by FastEddieB »

I think some may be making an unwarranted assumption. To wit, that certified aircraft mechanics do better work than non-certified owners of ELSA’s.

Over the years, most of the horrifically bad maintenance-induced-failures I’ve seen or read about have been at the hands of FAA-certified mechanics. And some of the best work has been done by non-certified owners on their own Experimental planes.

Just a single data point - or two: My first 2 Annual Condition Inspections were done by a respected shop specializing in Light Sport. Both times left things undone - cowling latch pin missing (both times), passenger seat unsecured (once), and the battery replaced with a different model without an LOA. Though I’m human, and therefore fallible, over the last 8 or 9 Annual Condition Inspections I’ve yet to commit such blunder, though I always try to be alert to the possibility. And I thank Tim for the confidence he seems to place on me - I only hope it’s warranted.

Finally, I don’t think there would or should be any difference in the scope or detail of a pre-buy inspection dependent on who had been doing the maintenance. Plenty of shoddy maintenance out there regardless of the legal status of the mechanic.
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ShawnM
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Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport

Post by ShawnM »

FastEddieB wrote:I think some may be making an unwarranted assumption. To wit, that certified aircraft mechanics do better work than non-certified owners of ELSA’s.

Over the years, most of the horrifically bad maintenance-induced-failures I’ve seen or read about have been at the hands of FAA-certified mechanics. And some of the best work has been done by non-certified owners on their own Experimental planes.

Just a single data point - or two: My first 2 Annual Condition Inspections were done by a respected shop specializing in Light Sport. Both times left things undone - cowling latch pin missing (both times), passenger seat unsecured (once), and the battery replaced with a different model without an LOA. Though I’m human, and therefore fallible, over the last 8 or 9 Annual Condition Inspections I’ve yet to commit such blunder, though I always try to be alert to the possibility. And I thank Tim for the confidence he seems to place on me - I only hope it’s warranted.

Finally, I don’t think there would or should be any difference in the scope or detail of a pre-buy inspection dependent on who had been doing the maintenance. Plenty of shoddy maintenance out there regardless of the legal status of the mechanic.
VERY, VERY well said Eddie. I personally feel that my attention to detail on my own maintenance is FAR better than any mechanic that I could hire. Nothing against mechanics out there but it's my butt in that seat when I take off after any service. I know it's right. I've seen plug wires left disconnected and only caught at the run up after the service, safety wire not installed where needed, hoses left lose among other things by various mechanics. I'm human and make mistakes also but I triple check my plane after service and make very thorough log entries for whatever I do, even the little things.

The pre-purchase inspection between a S-LSA and a E-LSA should be the same, extremely thorough. Just because a certified LSRM or A&P did the work and signed the log entries DOES NOT MEAN IT"S CORRECT. Also, just because the owner of an E-LSA did the work and signed the log entries does not mean it's NOT correct.

Very presumptuous of some to assume that an E-LSA owner did the work or that it may be second rate work. I know of a few E-LSA owners who still refuse to change their own oil and others that have the schooling, knowledge and ability to work on their own plane.

For ANY pre purchase inspection, one should not focus on WHO did the work but more importantly focus on the work performed and how well, or not, it was carried out and are the logs thorough and current with what you see during the inspection.

I can guarantee you that I take way better care and maintenance of my plane than ANY mechanic would.
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Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport

Post by 3Dreaming »

A well trained mechanic can look at an airplane and tell pretty quickly what the level of maintenance has been. I know some people who don't have a mechanics certificate that do wonderful work, and I have seen things from a certificated mechanic that were borderline negligent. A look at the records don't always give all the details either. A recent condition inspection had good records, but the airplane was a big mess.
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Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport

Post by drseti »

ShawnM wrote:Nothing against mechanics out there but it's my butt in that seat when I take off after any service.
Not necessarily, Shawn. Some of us won't return your plane to you until we've put our own butts in the seat and done a test flight! Contrast that with those mechanics who will never fly in a plane they've worked on - doesn't that just instill confidence? ;)
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ShawnM
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Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport

Post by ShawnM »

drseti wrote:
ShawnM wrote:Nothing against mechanics out there but it's my butt in that seat when I take off after any service.
Not necessarily, Shawn. Some of us won't return your plane to you until we've put our own butts in the seat and done a test flight! Contrast that with those mechanics who will never fly in a plane they've worked on - doesn't that just instill confidence? ;)
Oh, that's good. Request your mechanic to join you on the "return to service" flight after he's done. That might get you a more thorough condition inspection. :mrgreen:
TimTaylor
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Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport

Post by TimTaylor »

There is nothing presumptuous here. I would always trust a well-trained, experienced and certified mechanic more that some guy who just bought an S-LSA and converted to E-LSA and started maintaining it with no training and no experience. That was the point I was responding to when Eddie said no training is required. By the same token, I will not go to a doctor that did not finish med school, internship, and residency, and get licensed.

Of course, many or most owners might do a very good job of maintaining their aircraft. However, you don't know what you don't know. My question was how could you ascertain how well the owner had maintained his aircraft? I wondered if you could tell that with your pre-purchase inspection, but Bill Ince chimed in that that is not the purpose of a pre-purchase inspection. Well, of course it is, as has now been stated by multiple people. A pre-purchase inspection also includes a thorough review of the logbook entries and all associated paperwork.

Once again, someone has taken a thread where we were having a useful discussion and turned it into a pissing match.
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ShawnM
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Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport

Post by ShawnM »

TimTaylor wrote:Once again, someone has taken a thread where we were having a useful discussion and turned it into a pissing match.
Wow, it's cold in here........

Ok, I guess l'll be the one to address the elephant in the room. Why is it whenever there is a "pissing match" there's always one common denominator?

I get it, we are all passionate about flying and there's always going to be a difference of opinion, the world would be boring if there weren't. But there's no reason for petty jabs at other members because they may have formed an opinion different than your own.

Now let the OP "fall back in love with light sport". Many members here love light sport flying.
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Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport

Post by Wm.Ince »

TimTaylor wrote:My question was how could you ascertain how well the owner had maintained his aircraft? I wondered if you could tell that with your pre-purchase inspection, but Bill Ince chimed in that that is not the purpose of a pre-purchase inspection . . . Once again, someone has taken a thread where we were having a useful discussion and turned it into a pissing match.
That’s a bunch of crap.
This is what you actually said, and I quote,
TimTaylor wrote:. . . I'm not sure a pre-purchase inspection is going to be able to ascertain whether or not the previous owner knew what he was doing.
The prepurchase inspection is not to find out if the owner “knew what he is doing.”
Quite often, you attempt to twist things around, to cover your ass and suit your own purpose.
That doesn’t work here.
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drseti
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Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport

Post by drseti »

OK, you've all had a chance to vent. Now, I think it's time for everybody to take a step back, and return to the topic of this thread.
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Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport

Post by cam737 »

I will warm things up...
Screen Shot 2018-12-11 at 1.26.58 PM.jpeg
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TimTaylor
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Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport

Post by TimTaylor »

FastEddieB wrote:
Scooper wrote:I converted the Zodiac to ELSA and took the Rainbow Aviation LSRI class and now have my LSRI certificate so I can maintain and do my own condition inspections..
Small point...

No class or training is required to maintain an E-LSA you own.

I mention it only because a lot of folks don’t understand that.
My post was in reference to this. I was asking if a pre-purchase inspection would be able to tell if an owner who did his own maintenance knew what he was doing while maintaining his own aircraft.
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Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport

Post by drseti »

TimTaylor wrote:I was asking if a pre-purchase inspection would be able to tell if an owner who did his own maintenance knew what he was doing while maintaining his own aircraft.
Heck, a prebuy examination can't even tell if an LSRM, A&P, or AI knew what he or she was doing! The prebuy can only determine if the aircraft as viewed is indeed as advertised.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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