Flare and Touchdown
Moderator: drseti
-
- Posts: 999
- Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:48 pm
- Location: WV Eastern Panhandle
Re: Flare and Touchdown
Jim - Absolutely different set of circumstances. I was just referring to the visual effect (illusion, possibly) when watching the heavier aircraft come in. Gravely Point used to be a great place to have lunch. One day I was watching the airliners using the main N-S runway with my binoculars (sadly, I forget my scanner), when I noticed the fire trucks rolling across. I panned over to what is now Rwy 22 and saw a Cessna 210 that had just performed a wheels-up landing. The pilot was literally jumping up and down, clearly displeased with the situation.
- Bruce
Re: Flare and Touchdown
That is absolutely and unequivocally not true.Jim Hardin wrote:Merlinspop wrote:. . . "In fact somewhere between 50 and 100 feet above touchdown elevation, an airliner cannot make a go around without hitting the runway." . . .
Bill Ince
LSRI
Retired Heavy Equipment Operator
LSRI
Retired Heavy Equipment Operator
- Jim Hardin
- Posts: 274
- Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:33 pm
Re: Flare and Touchdown
Sorry if my reply sounded harsh, it was not meant to be that way!Merlinspop wrote:Jim - Absolutely different set of circumstances. I was just referring to the visual effect (illusion, possibly) when watching the heavier aircraft come in. Gravely Point used to be a great place to have lunch. One day I was watching the airliners using the main N-S runway with my binoculars (sadly, I forget my scanner), when I noticed the fire trucks rolling across. I panned over to what is now Rwy 22 and saw a Cessna 210 that had just performed a wheels-up landing. The pilot was literally jumping up and down, clearly displeased with the situation.
What you described was an interesting observation and something I will have to look for when I get the chance.
- Jim Hardin
- Posts: 274
- Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:33 pm
Re: Flare and Touchdown
Depends on the circumstances and by that I mean the aircraft and any local variables.Wm.Ince wrote:That is absolutely and unequivocally not true.Jim Hardin wrote:Merlinspop wrote:. . . "In fact somewhere between 50 and 100 feet above touchdown elevation, an airliner cannot make a go around without hitting the runway." . . .
I have never flown anything that heavy, 12.5 was my max but this is what was taught by a couple of airline pilots who taught my ATP class and something I have heard mentioned by at least 2 FAA inspectors on check rides.
If you know some Heavy Drivers that dispute that, I am always open to discarding old myths!
- FastEddieB
- Posts: 2880
- Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:33 pm
- Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
Re: Flare and Touchdown
You just heard from one, and he was "unequivocal".Jim Hardin wrote:If you know some Heavy Drivers that dispute that, I am always open to discarding old myths!Wm.Ince wrote:That is absolutely and unequivocally not true.Jim Hardin wrote:
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Re: Flare and Touchdown
When Bill says, "Retired Heavy Equipment Operator", he's not talking about excavators.
Re: Flare and Touchdown
First off, we're not talking about "light twins" here (MTOGW =<12,500 lbs.).Jim Hardin wrote:Depends on the circumstances and by that I mean the aircraft and any local variables.
I have never flown anything that heavy, 12.5 was my max but this is what was taught by a couple of airline pilots who taught my ATP class and something I have heard mentioned by at least 2 FAA inspectors on check rides.
If you know some Heavy Drivers that dispute that, I am always open to discarding old myths!
Secondly, it is standard practice and company policy that turbo-jet engines be "spooled up" at an absolute altitude of no less than 500' agl. If any one of those 4 references (2 "airline pilots" or 2 FAA inspectors) were implying anything different than that, then they were putting out misleading information.
If a go-around maneuver was started at 50-100 agl, with unspooled engines, the airplane may touch down, but that would be the result of gross error and goes against established procedures. There is a good reason Boeing, Airbus and McDonnell-Douglas published procedures for spooled up engines at 500'. That reason is to ensure immediate engine response when a go-around maneuver is initiated. For one reason or another, once a go-around is started, a commercial airliner should be able to complete the maneuver without contacting the runway surface (even at 50'). An exception, of course, would be unintentional encounter into a microburst (windshear) event.
All the heavy aircraft I have flown, DC-9 up to A-330 (14,000+ hrs), have been capable of a touch down free, go-around maneuver below 50', some well below that.
Engines spooled up, as per established/required procedures, make it a non-event . . . as long as all engines are turning!
Last edited by Wm.Ince on Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bill Ince
LSRI
Retired Heavy Equipment Operator
LSRI
Retired Heavy Equipment Operator
- Jim Hardin
- Posts: 274
- Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:33 pm
Re: Flare and Touchdown
Sorry I haven't been able to get back sooner!
'Heavy equipment operator' is a bulldozer operator to me Cute but misleading.
Next question, have you personally ever done a go around in an A330, at or near 400,000 lbs, from 50 feet in actual (not simulated) conditions?
Not being a smart a__ but I can claim a go around in a glider when most would not consider it impossible. Only did it once and not enough energy left for second one...
'Heavy equipment operator' is a bulldozer operator to me Cute but misleading.
Next question, have you personally ever done a go around in an A330, at or near 400,000 lbs, from 50 feet in actual (not simulated) conditions?
Not being a smart a__ but I can claim a go around in a glider when most would not consider it impossible. Only did it once and not enough energy left for second one...
Re: Flare and Touchdown
Bob Hoover used to demonstrate not just go-arounds, but a full blown touch-and-go, followed by a traffic pattern and landing, with both props feathered in a Shrike Commander biz twin! It was part of his Energy Management airshow act. I once saw him do his (1970s) in California. The airshow announcer was Chuck Yeager. As Hoover rolled to a stop at airshow center, stepped onto the wing and doffed his famous straw hat, Yeager said over the PA "ladies and gentlemen, let's have a round of applause for the world's second-greatest pilot!"
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
Re: Flare and Touchdown
I've read about this. It would have been great to see. Bit about Yeager is precious.drseti wrote:Bob Hoover used to demonstrate not just go-arounds, but a full blown touch-and-go, followed by a traffic pattern and landing, with both props feathered in a Shrike Commander biz twin! It was part of his Energy Management airshow act. I once saw him do his (1970s) in California. The airshow announcer was Chuck Yeager. As Hoover rolled to a stop at airshow center, stepped onto the wing and doffed his famous straw hat, Yeager said over the PA "ladies and gentlemen, let's have a round of applause for the world's second-greatest pilot!"
The Bealton Va. Flying Circus is near where I live. The last time I went there someone did an energy management routine in a Cub. It was great to watch, but the thing that really struck me was the sound. You could clearly hear the wind blowing through the rigging. It was quite loud actually and something you would never hear (hopefully!) in the normal course of flying.
Ron
Re: Flare and Touchdown
drseti wrote:Bob Hoover used to demonstrate not just go-arounds, but a full blown touch-and-go, followed by a traffic pattern and landing, with both props feathered in a Shrike Commander biz twin! It was part of his Energy Management airshow act. I once saw him do his (1970s) in California. The airshow announcer was Chuck Yeager. As Hoover rolled to a stop at airshow center, stepped onto the wing and doffed his famous straw hat, Yeager said over the PA "ladies and gentlemen, let's have a round of applause for the world's second-greatest pilot!"
- CharlieTango
- Posts: 1000
- Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am
- Location: Mammoth Lakes, California
Re: Flare and Touchdown
I used to feel a need to play chicken with the ground in my CTSW but have gone back to a more gradual, less rushed round out that starts sooner.
With 30* and idle its a steep approach, add in speed at @ 1.3 and they are mostly short / soft with full aft stick.
With 30* and idle its a steep approach, add in speed at @ 1.3 and they are mostly short / soft with full aft stick.
Re: Flare and Touchdown
How sooner?CharlieTango wrote:. . . "have gone back to a more gradual, less rushed round out that starts sooner." . . .
Bill Ince
LSRI
Retired Heavy Equipment Operator
LSRI
Retired Heavy Equipment Operator
- FastEddieB
- Posts: 2880
- Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:33 pm
- Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
Re: Flare and Touchdown
There are two landings in the video posted below.
My Sky Arrow stalls at about 40kts. 1.3 times that would be 52kts. If you watch the airspeed on the left, it appears I gravitate to about 55kts or a little more on final - I honestly am not watching it much if at all on final.
You can judge for yourself when I begin the roundout - it would be when the airspeed starts inching down to approximately stall speed. It appears to me to be a bit less than one wingspan, but I think the GoPro flattens out the perspective a bit, making the approach seem lower than it really is.
https://youtu.be/hDCb9dMFlB4
My Sky Arrow stalls at about 40kts. 1.3 times that would be 52kts. If you watch the airspeed on the left, it appears I gravitate to about 55kts or a little more on final - I honestly am not watching it much if at all on final.
You can judge for yourself when I begin the roundout - it would be when the airspeed starts inching down to approximately stall speed. It appears to me to be a bit less than one wingspan, but I think the GoPro flattens out the perspective a bit, making the approach seem lower than it really is.
https://youtu.be/hDCb9dMFlB4