Curious as to what others teach in this area?
Most LSA POH are not much help.
My thinking is that there are 3 basic scenarios involved...
Airframe intact but get on ground fast.
Weather related, get below clouds.
Airframe probably compromised get down without down without losing more.
Others? Thoughts?
Emergency Descent
Moderator: drseti
Re: Emergency Descent
If you mean get on the ground really fast (like a fire), I teach:Jim Hardin wrote:Airframe intact but get on ground fast.
Engine and switches off - fuel valve off
Full flaps
Establish best glide speed
Roll into steep spiral (45 to 60 degree bank)
Stick back to maintain best glide speed
Assuming that you flew from acceptable into deteriorating weather:Weather related, get below clouds.
Establish level, stabilized slow flight at best glide speed
Initiate shallow-banked 180 degree turn
If ceiling is dropping, power back to idle, full flaps, descend while maintaining best glide speed
When 500 below clouds, add power to level off in slow flight
Fly back to airport and land
Power back to idleAirframe probably compromised get down without down without losing more.
Descend at top of white arc
Don't extend flaps
Fly aircraft on well above stall speed
Engine failure on takeoff:Others? Thoughts?
Maintain best glide speed
Land straight ahead +- 30 deg, unless >1000 ft AGL
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
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Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
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Re: Emergency Descent
Paul, I bet in some airplanes under the right circumstances you might be going up instead of down set up like that. Think Taylorcraft in a big thermal.drseti wrote:If you mean get on the ground really fast (like a fire), I teach:Jim Hardin wrote:Airframe intact but get on ground fast.
Engine and switches off - fuel valve off
Full flaps
Establish best glide speed
Roll into steep spiral (45 to 60 degree bank)
Stick back to maintain best glide speed
If I'm on fire I am going do like Paul said, fuel and switches off, but unless I am right over where I need to land I am going to push the nose down and accelerate to close to VNE, with possibly a little slip. If I am over where I want to land, then maneuvering speed 60° bank steep spiral.
For flight into weather assuming you already had the airplane trimmed. Hands off the wheel. or at minimum light pressure to keep airplane stable. Feet on the rudder pedals. Reduce power to give 500 foot rate of descent, you should know what that number is for your airplane. Keep your heading, or if you need to make a turn use rudder only and make no more than standard rate turn. Roll out of turn with rudder. I have not found an airplane yet that this didn't work. Of course if you have a working autopilot use that to get you out of trouble.
- Jim Hardin
- Posts: 274
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Re: Emergency Descent
Interesting.
ACS/PTS only mentions 45 degree banks. I would stick with that, as going to the 60 deg. Is flying an emergency in a seldom practiced maneuver (my opinion).
Rudder only
I favor ALL turns/ corrections to be made with coordinated inputs. Again, my opinion.
Still all are interesting comments that I will consider.
ACS/PTS only mentions 45 degree banks. I would stick with that, as going to the 60 deg. Is flying an emergency in a seldom practiced maneuver (my opinion).
Rudder only
![Shocked :shock:](./images/smilies/icon_eek.gif)
Still all are interesting comments that I will consider.
Re: Emergency Descent
True. But if I'm on fire, I want to get down as quickly as possible. That means diverting as much lift as possible from the vertical to the horizontal. Of course, I wouldn't suggest anyone should bank 60 degrees without proper training!Jim Hardin wrote:ACS/PTS only mentions 45 degree banks.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
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Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
Re: Emergency Descent
To get to the ground fast, I cut power pull back on the yoke and wiggle the wings... 1500-2000 feet per minute decent... your ears will pop.
Or maybe this is only good for an Ercoupe.
Or maybe this is only good for an Ercoupe.
Joey
Cincinnati OH
Sport Pilot
Double Eagle N35DE
Cincinnati OH
Sport Pilot
Double Eagle N35DE
Re: Emergency Descent
With small rudder inputs I can keep the ball as close to center as most students do trying to make a coordinated turn. I had an old lady former military link trainer instructor, flight school owner, DPE teach me how to do precision approaches using this method. It helps prevent overcontrolling. Lots of non instrument rated flight into IMC accidents happen due to loss of control caused by overcontrolling. It is a simple way to help pilots keep from losing control in an emergency.Jim Hardin wrote:Interesting. Rudder onlyI favor ALL turns/ corrections to be made with coordinated inputs. Again, my opinion.
Things are different if you are instrument rated with lots of instrument time.
Re: Emergency Descent
I agree with that technique, Tom - except I can never seem to make it work in the Ercoupe! ![Twisted Evil :twisted:](./images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif)
![Twisted Evil :twisted:](./images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif)
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
- FastEddieB
- Posts: 2880
- Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:33 pm
- Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
Re: Emergency Descent
At least for the Commercial ACS, pilots need to demonstrate a steep spiral:Jim Hardin wrote: ACS/PTS only mentions 45 degree banks. I would stick with that, as going to the 60 deg. Is flying an emergency in a seldom practiced maneuver (my opinion).
“Apply wind-drift correction to track a constant radius circle around selected reference point with bank not to exceed 60° at steepest point in turn.”
Re: Emergency Descent
Your just not flying the right Ercoupe.drseti wrote:I agree with that technique, Tom - except I can never seem to make it work in the Ercoupe!
Re: Emergency Descent
I'm sorry, Tom, I'm a purist. If you're suggesting one with rudder pedals, I contend that's not a real Ercoupe.3Dreaming wrote: Your just not flying the right Ercoupe.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
Re: Emergency Descent
Hmm...seems to me you could get a better descent rate by leaving flaps up and pitching over to Vne or fastest dive, whichever is lower. The max speed on full flaps on many airplanes is quite low, on my CT it's only 62kt. That is going to hinder how fast you can get down, as I'd overspeed at something like 600-750fpm descent. At close to Vne with no flaps and power off I can come down at probably 1500-2000fpm.drseti wrote:If you mean get on the ground really fast (like a fire), I teach:Jim Hardin wrote:Airframe intact but get on ground fast.
Engine and switches off - fuel valve off
Full flaps
Establish best glide speed
Roll into steep spiral (45 to 60 degree bank)
Stick back to maintain best glide speed
In this scenario I don't want best glide or anything close to it, I want best descent rate.
Am I wrong about this?
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Re: Emergency Descent
I guess it depends on the plane, Andy. In mine, the 50 degree flaps give you so much drag that you drop really fast. The 60 degree bank diverts what lift there is mostly to the horizontal. And at slow flight, the wing has lost some of its inboard lift (though you still have really good aileron control). I'd say everyone should run the experiment (at altitude, of course) to see what works best for them.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
Re: Emergency Descent
No Andy . . . you are quite right.MrMorden wrote:...seems to me you could get a better descent rate by leaving flaps up and pitching over to Vne or fastest dive, whichever is lower. The max speed on full flaps on many airplanes is quite low, on my CT it's only 62kt. That is going to hinder how fast you can get down, as I'd overspeed at something like 600-750fpm descent. At close to Vne with no flaps and power off I can come down at probably 1500-2000fpm.
In this scenario I don't want best glide or anything close to it, I want best descent rate.
Am I wrong about this?
I would only add (LSA) . . power should be at idle, and during the Vne descent, enter a medium bank, which will increase the rate of descent even more. A steep bank at Vne is optimal for max rate of descent.
Of course, down at the bottom, a deceleration will be necessary. That's where drag should be added, such as slipping and extending flaps on schedule.
Bill Ince
LSRI
Retired Heavy Equipment Operator
LSRI
Retired Heavy Equipment Operator
Re: Emergency Descent
I an see using the turn to add drag and increase the descent rate...but now you are at relatively low speed in a 2g bank, and risking an accelerated stall. In my high speed way of thinking, I am coming down like a meteor and I can put in as much bank as I want up to the airframe limit (though admittedly my turn radius is *much* larger) while looking outside at the planned landing zone, instead of watching the ASI and sweating the stall.drseti wrote:I guess it depends on the plane, Andy. In mine, the 50 degree flaps give you so much drag that you drop really fast. The 60 degree bank diverts what lift there is mostly to the horizontal. And at slow flight, the wing has lost some of its inboard lift (though you still have really good aileron control). I'd say everyone should run the experiment (at altitude, of course) to see what works best for them.
As Bill said, in the high speed method there is definitely an energy management problem at the bottom. Though on the plus side you arrive close to the ground with a lot of energy to maneuver or glide.
I'm not saying your method is wrong, I'm just saying how I'd prefer to do things...
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA