Sport Pilot Talk

dstclair wrote:A typical W&B has a published 'arm' for variable items such as fuel, pilot, passengers, baggage, etc but may not have an arm for other equipment. The Sting's typical W&B worksheet does publish arms for the mains, nose wheel and instruments so it would be a simple exercise for calculation provided changes were made at those arms. I don't know if this is straight-forward for other LSAs. Now then just because its possible for the owner/pilot to do so, does it make it compliant to the regs? That's my Q to those who have LSRM, A&P or IA ratings.

The pilot is the one required to comply with the W&B per flight, it makes no sense to not allow a pilot to calculate it. That's why we practice it in flight training. There is no requirement AFAIK for who can calculate a valid W&B. As long as it's done correctly, it doesn't matter who did it.

I have arms for most stuff in my airplane. but not wheel pants. I calculated those based on other arms and known distances from them.

Honestly, I think we're trying to over-complicate a simple situation here.

Andy, if you are ramp checked according to the inspector's handbook, one of the items the FAA will check for is a current weight and balance plus a current equipment list. As for what is required you will have to dig a little deeper. For SLSA the manufacturer would need to provide guidance on whether you can remove the wheel pants, and if a new weight and balance is required. For standard category aircraft they were required to have a weight and balance with equipment list when new. Any changes made should be documented. Sometimes you need to look at the TCDS for the aircraft. I was doing a annual inspection on some gliders over the weekend, and couldn't find the W&B for one of them. We finally found it, and the glider had been recovered and painted without updating the W&B. When I looked at the TCDS I found this, "Current weight and balance report including list of equipment in certificated empty weight, and loading instructions when necessary, must be provided for each glider at the time of original certification and at all times thereafter." We reweighed the glider and made a current W&B with equipment list.

As for removal of wheel pants, as a mechanic I think the removal requires a maintenance entry in the aircraft records. I think the equipment list and W&B should be updated. I am undecided on whether the owner/pilot can remove the pants and leave them off. Under preventive maintenance it is clear that they can remove and reinstall the pants for a tire change, but CFR Appendix A is also clear that that FAA does not want pilots doing maintenance that incurs W&B changes. Of course this is for standard category airplanes. For SLSA this is decided by the manufacture. For experimental anyone can do it.

Also worth noting on wheel pant removal that you need to follow the manufacture's guidance. They may or may not approve removal of the wheel fairings, especially the nose wheel fairing. For example Flight Design approves the removal of the main wheel fairings, but not the nose wheel fairing. I seem to recall that for some other aircraft as well.

3Dreaming wrote:Andy, if you are ramp checked according to the inspector's handbook, one of the items the FAA will check for is a current weight and balance plus a current equipment list. As for what is required you will have to dig a little deeper. For SLSA the manufacturer would need to provide guidance on whether you can remove the wheel pants, and if a new weight and balance is required. For standard category aircraft they were required to have a weight and balance with equipment list when new. Any changes made should be documented. Sometimes you need to look at the TCDS for the aircraft. I was doing a annual inspection on some gliders over the weekend, and couldn't find the W&B for one of them. We finally found it, and the glider had been recovered and painted without updating the W&B. When I looked at the TCDS I found this, "Current weight and balance report including list of equipment in certificated empty weight, and loading instructions when necessary, must be provided for each glider at the time of original certification and at all times thereafter." We reweighed the glider and made a current W&B with equipment list.

As for removal of wheel pants, as a mechanic I think the removal requires a maintenance entry in the aircraft records. I think the equipment list and W&B should be updated. I am undecided on whether the owner/pilot can remove the pants and leave them off. Under preventive maintenance it is clear that they can remove and reinstall the pants for a tire change, but CFR Appendix A is also clear that that FAA does not want pilots doing maintenance that incurs W&B changes. Of course this is for standard category airplanes. For SLSA this is decided by the manufacture. For experimental anyone can do it.

Also worth noting on wheel pant removal that you need to follow the manufacture's guidance. They may or may not approve removal of the wheel fairings, especially the nose wheel fairing. For example Flight Design approves the removal of the main wheel fairings, but not the nose wheel fairing. I seem to recall that for some other aircraft as well.

By "a current weight and balance" are you saying I have to provide a *written* W&B document current and up to date for the current flight, including fuel and passenger weights? Or can I simply calculate such a W&B on the spot, show I'm within limits, and be on my way? That is what we're debating. If you are arguing the former, then I'd say 99.9% of flights are out of compliance.

MrMorden wrote: By "a current weight and balance" are you saying I have to provide a *written* W&B document current and up to date for the current flight, including fuel and passenger weights? Or can I simply calculate such a W&B on the spot, show I'm within limits, and be on my way? That is what we're debating. If you are arguing the former, then I'd say 99.9% of flights are out of compliance.

I am talking about the weight and balance document that is part of the aircraft records that you use as the starting point for your computations. It needs to be up to date reflecting the current equipment installed in the airplane, and it must include the airplanes current empty weight and empty weight center of gravity. Without this you can not perform a weight and balance computation for the flight.

The aircraft as it is certified and equipped needs a current and correct weight and balance document. Anytime anything is added, removed, or modified that would affect the weight and balance, the documentation should be updated. This is done by the A&P who does the work as far as I know. I believe the aircraft is not airworthy and legal if this documentation is not current and correct. The reason I say "I believe" is because I can't reference an FAR that spells this out and I am not going to look for one.

Some here are confusing this with the weight and balance calculation a pilot should do before a flight to ensure the aircraft is within allowable weight and balance limits based on loading of pilot, passengers, fuel, and baggage. You CANNOT make this determination if the aircraft documentation is not current and complete.

There are no specified requirements for a pilot operating under 14 CFR part 91 to conduct weight and balance calculations prior to each flight.
14 CFR part 91, section 91.9 requires the pilot in command (PIC) to comply with the operating limits in the approved AFM. These limits include the weight and balance of the aircraft. To enable pilots to make weight and balance computations, charts and graphs 
are provided in the approved AFM.

Wm.Ince wrote:There are no specified requirements for a pilot operating under 14 CFR part 91 to conduct weight and balance calculations prior to each flight.
14 CFR part 91, section 91.9 requires the pilot in command (PIC) to comply with the operating limits in the approved AFM. These limits include the weight and balance of the aircraft. To enable pilots to make weight and balance computations, charts and graphs 
are provided in the approved AFM.

Thank you. My point exactly.

Now, can somebody point out a requirement to have an actual W&B document of any particular type in the airplane? There might be such a requirement, but I don't know for sure. I have seen reference to a requirement for "W&B information", but nothing detailing any particular document like a current W&B sheet up to date with all current equipment.

I'm not trying to "get away with something" here...but the term "required" is very specific, and we should understand what really is and what isn't.

I think it must be in Part 23 under Appendix A - Instructions for Continued Airworthiness

I think every pilot is familiar with this...

1. AIRCRAFT MUST HAVE THE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTS ON BOARD (AS PER FAR
91.9, 91.203 & 23.1589) [“AROW”]:
A. CURRENT AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATE.
B. CURRENT REGISTRATION CERTIFICATE.
C. CURRENT AIRPLANE FLIGHT MANUAL OR PILOT'S OPERATING HANDBOOK.
D. CURRENT WEIGHT AND BALANCE PAPERWORK.
2. FOR DAY VFR FLIGHT, THE AIRCRAFT MUST HAVE THE REQUIRED WORKING
INSTRUMENTS AND EQUIPMENT (AS PER FAR 91.205)
DISCREPANCIES found during the preflight should be immediately reported to the Wing
Maintenance Officer and the Airworthiness of the aircraft verified prior to flight.
3. FOR NIGHT VFR FLIGHT, THE AIRCRAFT MUST HAVE THE REQUIRED WORKING
INSTRUMENTS AND EQUIPMENT (AS PER FAR 91.205)
DISCREPANCIES found during the preflight should be immediately reported to the Wing
Maintenance Officer and the Airworthiness of the aircraft verified prior to flight.
4. FOR IFR FLIGHT, THE AIRCRAFT MUST HAVE THE REQUIRED WORKING
INSTRUMENTS AND EQUIPMENT (AS PER FAR 91.205)
DISCREPANCIES found during the preflight should be immediately reported to the Wing
Maintenance Officer and the Airworthiness of the aircraft verified prior to flight.
5. REQUIRED INSPECTIONS (AS PER FAR 43.17 & FAR 91.207):
A. PITOT-STATIC, ALTIMETER AND TRANSPONDER SYSTEMS CHECKED AND CERTIFIED
WITHIN PRECEDING 24 CALENDAR MONTHS.
B. VOR EQUIPMENT OPERATIONALLY CHECKED WITHIN PRECEDING 30 DAYS AND
FOUND WITHIN TOLERANCE (4º COMPARISON GROUND OR FLIGHT; 6º AIRBORNE
VOR CHECK POINT) FOR IFR FLIGHT.
C. EMERGENCY LOCATOR TRANSMITTER BATTERY MUST BE REPLACED WHEN 50%
OF ITS USEFUL LIFE HAS ELAPSED.
INOPERATIVE EQUIPMENT IS TO BE PLACARDED AS SUCH BY PIC!

MrMorden wrote:

TimTaylor wrote:If the aircraft weight and balance documentation is not current and correct, it is impossible to do a weight and balance calculation for your flight. You have no possible way to know what may or may not have been added or removed from the aircraft. You have no way to know if the airplane is even within allowable limits even as it sits on the ramp. If you go for a flight test without a current and correct documentation, the examiner will not fly with you.

We're talking about day to day operations, not a checkride. I own my airplane, I know exactly what's on it. If I take off my wheel pants, I don't have to put a whole new sheet in the airplane because I know it's been done, I have calc'ed the weight, and nobody else will be flying it. Of course if you have a flight school airplane and a dozen people flying it, keeping a correct W&B sheet in the airplane is a best practice.

....

I think that sums it up very well ... you are flying your own plane , it is in your best interest to make sure you do come back in one piece .. so yeah, you are the best your own ‘Wing Maintenance Officer’ there can be.

TimTaylor wrote:I think it must be in Part 23 under Appendix A - Instructions for Continued Airworthiness

That reference makes no mention of weight and balance.

TimTaylor wrote:I think it must be in Part 23 under Appendix A - Instructions for Continued Airworthiness

I think every pilot is familiar with this...

1. AIRCRAFT MUST HAVE THE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTS ON BOARD (AS PER FAR
91.9, 91.203 & 23.1589) [“AROW”]:

The words "weight and balance" appear nowhere in 91.9, 91.203, or 23.1589. And I believe part 23 relates to requirements for manufacturers building aircraft, not operations by pilots.

It talks about what is required for an aircraft to be certified as airworthy and then maintain this airworthy status. A pilot can't legally fly an airplane that is not airworthy. I think that is the question asked in this thread.

TimTaylor wrote:It talks about what is required for an aircraft to be certified as airworthy and then maintain this airworthy status. A pilot can't legally fly an airplane that is not airworthy. I think that is the question asked in this thread.

My point is that there is nothing defining how the W&B info must be presented, or if it has to be written down at all. The following instructions on continued airworthiness list "weight & balance" exactly once, saying the aircraft manual must have instructions for determining center of gravity. That's a far cry from "you have to have a sheet showing all currently installed equipment and a calculated current CG in the aircraft."

I'm willing to admit I'm wrong on this, but so far nobody has produced a reference requiring a current W&B sheet be in the airplane.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... tID/638511

TimTaylor wrote:https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... 8083-1.pdf

That is a pilot educational document on how to calculate W&B, and is not regulatory in nature.