I WOULD NEVER DO THIS, but ya see, I've got this friend....

[KSCessnaDriver]

JNMEADE,

A "CEILING" is defined as the bottom of a layer of clouds that is called out as "BROKEN OR OVERCAST."

Flying above a "ceiling" is, by definition, VFR ON-TOP , a privilege that is only given to Private Pilots and above, with an instrument rating.

Now there's a term, VFR OVER-THE-TOP, where a non IFR rated pilot makes a climb in clear air, to clear air above a low cloud layer, and then descends to their destination, again, in clear air. To legally do this, you must be able to descend in VFR if the engine were to quit.

VFR on Top is an IFR operation. VFR over the Top is a VFR operation. There is no regulation that requires you to be able to descend VFR if the engine quits. Why people make up stuff like that I have no idea, but it's not regulatory.

I'm ignorant! Can a Blimp fly IFR?

Let me rephrase what I incorectly said

"NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER GET IN A CLOUD WITHOUT GYROS!!! UNLESS YOU ARE FLYING A LTA (BLIMP/AIRSHIP)"[/b]

Yes, LTA can fly IFR and do fly IFR from time to time. I was merely pointing out that using absolutes is never a good idea, as there is nearly always something that goes against what you are saying

[bryancobb]

[quote="KSCessnaDriver"]...There is no regulation that requires you to be able to descend VFR if the engine quits. Why people make up stuff like that I have no idea, but it's not regulatory...[quote="bryancobb"]I'm ignorant! Can a Blimp fly IFR?

There MOST CERTAINLY IS a regulation that says this. Now I grant you, it is in Part 135 and covers aircraft carrying passengers, but the principle of a Sport Pilot being VFR Over the Top of a ceiling is NOT a good thing. I had remembered this reg from training and mistakenly thought it was in Part 91. If you are gonna be above a cloud ceiling, you should be instrument rated.

FAR 135.211(b)(2)

[stevenr]

Right. But what do you do when you know some moron is flying IFR when they don't have that rating or a certified plane?

[bryancobb]

Right. But what do you do when you know some moron is flying IFR when they don't have that rating or a certified plane?

I would just look the other way, knowing that the odds are 1/1,000,000 that they will ever hurt anyone except themselves, but I WOULD'NT DO IT MYSELF!

[jnmeade]

So what is happening here is that some self-appointed safety stewards are pushing what they think is a good flying practice as if it were regulatory. It is not regulatory.
One of the things we pilots do is make things up. It leads to fervently held "non-truths" that people swear by.
Why can't we all agree on what is legal and on what is common sense and not try to make the common sense part regulatory when it is not?
we are doing ourselves a grave disservice when we start preaching that something that each of us individually thinks is a good idea is a regulation.

No on addressed the question of what the reg really says. There is no basis for trying to substitute a ceiling for lack of visual reference. A ceiling happens when you have 6/10 clouds. Lots of visual reference there. There are mnay cases where a SP would fly on the edge of weather such that he is over a ceiling but is within gliding range of clear blue. We've all been on the edge of a front like this.

[bitten192]

JNMEADE,

A "CEILING" is defined as the bottom of a layer of clouds that is called out as "BROKEN OR OVERCAST."

Flying above a "ceiling" is, by definition, VFR ON-TOP , a privilege that is only given to Private Pilots and above, with an instrument rating.

Now there's a term, VFR OVER-THE-TOP, where a non IFR rated pilot makes a climb in clear air, to clear air above a low cloud layer, and then descends to their destination, again, in clear air. To legally do this, you must be able to descend in VFR if the engine were to quit.

Although the FAR's don't specifically prohibit Sport Pilots from flying above the clouds, It is NEVER good judgement, and would most likely qualify as RECKLESS, if the cloud layer is thick enough for the FAA Weather People to say it's a CEILING (Broken/Overcast). Let's leave "Flying on top of a ceiling" for Private/Instrument pilots.

Can a Private Pilot or above, with an instrument rating, who flies under sport pilot rules (no current medical and not current Instrument proficiency) legally fly VFR on Top?

Ernie

[drseti]

Ernie, the FARs are clear to me. Without a valid medical, a pilot (private or above) is restricted to exercising sport pilot privileges. One of the SP limitations is the need to have constant visual contact with the ground. So, no flying above an undercast.

[FrankR]

Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 61—CERTIFICATION: PILOTS, FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS, AND GROUND INSTRUCTORS
Subpart J—Sport Pilots

§ 61.315 What are the privileges and limits of my sport pilot certificate?

(c) You may not act as pilot in command of a light-sport aircraft:

(13) Without visual reference to the surface.

[deltafox]

"Your weather briefing reports one of the many hazardous conditions described in this issue. You know it ought to be a no-go decision. But then you watch another pilot blithely launch into those conditions. Thus begins the dither. Does a no-go decision make you a weather wimp? Didn’t you spend thousands on an instrument rating and new equipment for your airplane? And so it goes, until the pilot too often drifts into the wrong course of action."

http://www.faa.gov/news/safety_briefing ... un2012.pdf

Make sure your friend has the proper training, right equipment, AND the proper attitude before he decides to "just pop through" a thin layer.

[roger lee]

Hi Ernie,

I'm with Paul. The regulations are clear and no one exercising SP privileges can fly on top. That means no on the SP license only and no to a PP licence with no medical flying as an SP.

[FrankR]

The way I understand it, any pilot, with any rating or endorsement, even an instrument rating, who is flying an LSA without a medical, regardless of whether or not the LSA is IFR equipped, is flying under Sport Pilot rules and is prohibited from flying "without visual reference to the surface."

[drseti]

Yes, Frank, that's my understanding exactly (and my personal circumstance).

[bitten192]

So I'm flying from Bend, OR to San Francisco and I can see Mt Shasta close off my right wing tip. That OK??

Ernie

[drseti]

Mt Shasta close off my right wing tip. That OK??

That depends, Ernie. Are you flying inverted?

[ussyorktown]

"That depends, Ernie. Are you flying inverted?"

too subtle.