Electronic Flight Bags, legality of electronic charts.

[Nomore767]

I have a few questions about carrying VFR charts, Electronic Flight Bag charts, and data-bases, if anyone cares to comment?

I've flown at three schools...CTLS, Remos and Skycatchers...each one the GPS databases indicated 'expired'. I'm assuming the subscription?
I asked a couple of CFI's about this and they usually scratched their heads and said something like "Heh, heh, well...they haven't been updated" and "They've talked about getting XM weather but haven't done it".
As I was contemplating maybe buying my own plane at some point down the road, if I find one that's suitable and cost effective, it was an area I hadn't considered.
Looking at the Skycatcher for example. My research shows that to update the databases, on board flite charts, safe taxi etc would require an annual subscription to a Pak, either standard or lite (which I'm not quite sure what the difference is) and would be $499 per year.

Then I've asked CFI's about whether having the GPS units 496, or G300 etc are enough to be legal to undertake a VFR flight? Should I also carry the expensive paper charts which go out of date quickly and sort of negate the reason to have electronic versions. I believe the FAA rule is that whilst you don't HAVE to carry a current VFR sectional you DO have to acquaint yourself with all the requirements for your flight. So I buy a current sectional but am going to mostly use the on-board GPS unit which has databases that are all expired.

One CFI encouraged me to get an iPad and use Foreflight. Not a bad idea as I can use the iPad on a trip (and I would make very many) to get e-mail as well as plan the trip, check weather etc. However, many apps have all the stuff already on the planes's units...eg safe taxi, AOPA directory, an instrument display just to get the VFR sectionals. Then I wouldn't need the whole USA plus I'd have to pay more to have weather transposed plus the plane transposed on a moving map, again bot of which I can get even if I had my own plane and paid for the subscriptions to be up to date.

I looked at Foreflight, Garmin, AOPA EQB and have just been looking at iFly700. All of which are very 'nice' but expensive and in many ways redundant.

Question is...what do you guys do, how is it working for you? Is it better to pay the annual Garmin subscription, add XM weather, and just carry a couple of the VFR charts you'd most use, or is it still good to back up with iPad and have more redundancy then I'd need just to have access to electronic sectionals?

[theskunk]

I fly with my ipad and foreflight almost exclusively. If i'm doing 'around the patch' I'll use the on board GPS, despite expiration, simply because I know the area and what things look like in general. I do check the ipad, since I know that I updated it and its in great condition relative to the latest information pertaining to my flight.

The problem that I've had with using the ipad in the past is how/where to mount it. Some of the aircraft simply don't have a good place. The Remos I fly, I use a glare-sheild mount and put it across the right side of the panel where the analog gauges are.

Skycatcher - I used a kneeboard for the ipad. I don't particularly care of this since it makes me look down more often, instead of looking out the window.

Allegro - again, kneeboard. It has space on the side window for me to suction the mount, however the thing lexan window doesn't seem strudy enough to hold it, and i don't want to push it. Newer models panels are being incorporated to have a mount point on the right side of the panel, or the left side above the dynon display. I have yet to see one.

SportCruiser - Clip it on the right panel glare shield. Downside - it can block the on board GPS a bit, and since 777NG at RUQ does have all updates + XM weather, I normally use it instead of the ipad, just makes it easier for me.

If i'm going to the airport and I don't need the mount, all i carry is my headset, ipad, and ipad kneeboard since that has my certificate and my logbook containing my endorsements. I've also started using it since it adds a bit of redundancy to the scenario, in that my iphone also uses the same foreflight subscription, and my electronic logbook automatically syncs between my iphone and ipad as well. Beyond that, I find that the ipad gives me great authority on my flight planning, and my ability to create my own way-points, just as a friends house so that on their 'quick ride' we can fly above their house without them having to figure out where they live.

As for legality, I've not heard anybody say anything to the contrary, and I even used the ipad on my checkride (without paper charts, GPS disabled) perfectly legally.

Furthermore, with the new plugins that have been released, as well as the ADS-B technology that has been coming out, the ipad is also able to be used in simulators, directly plugged into both x-plane and FSX gps modules and that way moving from the sim to the plane, i'm using the same nav equipment and am a more competent pilot because of it.

If you have any other questions, please let me know!

[Nomore767]

Rob,

Thanks for the reply. It's one thing to have say a Skycatcher with all the databases current and use them exclusively, 'around the patch', and another to knowingly pre-flight it to check the database and then find, well...it's expired and the CFI scratches his head and says it's okay. FAA says each flight to check all the pertinent aspects of the flight. In the airlines it was a no-brainer but in the (new to me) GA environment, I'm catching up to what is required. I'm more anal legally...from the airline days I guess.
A local flight, VFR, know the area, check the weather etc then perhaps the database, XM weather update isn't 'required' but is it 'required' in that there is no redundancy to the two G300s in the C-162?
I really like the iPad mini because with it's size and Foreflight I can be at home 'planning' a flight even a short cross country...but I believe it's a higher subscription for the moving map? And...the G300 already has terrain, airspace, airports and safe taxi so you're paying again for something that's already installed in the plane, although not so much if the school has paid for the database update!
If I bought a C-162 say, and paid $499 per year to keep the databases all current and only do Sport Flying around the patch is it really worth the redundancy of Foreflight and an iPad or is it genuinely a 'back-up', better than paper charts?

I bought a CLT sectional a few months ago, had to go to a few places to find one and it's already expired. Frankly I use the NC aviation guide which has the same sectional on it for planning and it's free! As I evaluate Sport flying and the 'costs' these things come into play and with all the gizmos and gadgets out there, I've been reading up on what's needed vs what's just 'nice to have'.

The Sport Cruiser you mentioned is the first time I've heard of anyone who actually paid for the database subscriptions!

[jnmeade]

Talking VFR only. Without looking at the FAR, as I recall you have to have all available knowledge about the airport at which you intend to land. You could probably print some free stuff off the internet and meet the FAA minimum requirements. Whether you're happy with that is a different question.

The pace of change in avionics is breathtaking. It's almost as bad as consumer electronics. In other words, one approach would be to simply go out every couple of years, buy whatever is new and pitch the old. Aviation prices are still too high to do that on a serious basis, but it does raise the point of how much money to invest in something that could become obsolete in six months.

If money is an issue, buy a used iPad II or even I for a couple of hundred bucks and load Foreflight on it, the cheap version for $75. Or, there are other programs like WingX.

If you are only going to fly VFR, you aren't required to have a current database (as you know, you technically don't have to have a current database to fly IFR but it is almost impossible to meet the requirements without one). Do you need weather? A fair weather flier doesn't. If you're used to flying with weather, you'll feel naked without it. I have weather on my Garmin 496 but will drop it when I get ADS-B in, because it is free. For the $60 some per month for XM Weather, you can pay for a Stratus in a year and a half or so.

If you have a smartphone, you can probably minimally do what you want to do safely and legally for 6-12 months until you get a feel for what you want to have and are willing to pay for.

You're going to get every strongly held opinion under the sun on this issue. My approach is just like with student pilots asking what kind of flight bag goodies to buy - get the absolute minimum until you have the experience to know what you will actually need and use. That sectional will last for six months. You'll know a lot more in six months than you do now. Get free or inexpensive smartphone apps and use at least one sectional before spending any money.

[Nomore767]

Thanks for the info, appreciate it.

Didn't know about being able to fly VFR with non-current database. At the airline there was a whole big deal when the navigation database had to bee changed over. Only maintenance could do it and only they had the new software.I think only recently has the FAA relaxed to allow crews to do a change if it occurs at an out station.

I'm kinda following your suggestions already. Looking and learning but waiting. There are so many changes and potential changes on the horizon and my goal for now is to go for simplicity. As with say XM weather...if it's an option with what you buy now or go cheaper without it now and want it later because of some enhancement? Just an example. I met a Legend Cub guy who had it and said it was kinda useful when he saw clouds ahead and could plot his way around it but he'd could really do it with his own eyes. he said he had to have XM satellite radio which he didn't need. So that's a good example of something not really necessary for sport flying. terrain on the other hand, I think is a good idea.

You're right about the chart...however, I tried several airports and flight schools and none had the local sectional. I know you can get it from Sporty's etc....one school said go to the terminal and I'm talking to a non-flying person who was nice but clueless and it's expired after only a few months.
I like the Foreflight type thing with all the sectionals on and your plane moving on it but that's about it. Don't need checklists of the basic six instruments, gas rices, safe taxi etc as it's already on the G300. Hate paying for something just to get one bit but there you go.

I always think as more advanced and automated everyhting gets, to make your life easier, it actually usually gets more complicated!

[CharlieTango]

Nomore,

I wasn't willing to pay the cost of the Ipad/foreflight that my friend has. I bought a Nexus 7 and Avilution software. I may have some features that I will not use but for $239 + $5/month I didn't spend more money than I needed to.

I spent $5 on one of their additional weather apps too.

[FrankR]

One Allegro I fly has a Lowrance Air Map 2000 mounted on the panel. The other one gas a Garmin 396.

I have a Vizio 8" Android Tablet (pretty generic, $200 a year ago), with internal GPS and I Avilution on it (<$5/mo). Moving map display right on the VFR sectional; tap an airport and the AFD comes up.

I flip the cover around the back and clip it to my kneeboard. The charts update automatically.

I also have a current VFR Sectional and AFD in my kneeboard and flightbag should they survive the fire and my wife tries to collect any insurance money.

[jnmeade]

I don't remember that you have to have XM Radio to have XM Weather. There are several flavors of XM Weather, as I recall. If you get it, be sure to get the Maritime version, not the aviation version, as the Maritime has everything the aviation does plus some for the same money.

The nice thing about onboard weather is not so much in verifying what you see but in seeing what is behind it. Just as you know that the radar could give you a false impression of what is behind the first echo until you actually got to it. I do a lot of long distance flying and like the Nexrad for that reason.

I'm drawing a blank on terrain - I know the Garmin 496 has it but you have to update it. Does the Foreflight have it, guys? Help me out.

Tall towers may be erect for months before they're on a terrain database.

I used to fly Part 135 and know what you mean about updating IFR databases.

You're right about getting the sectional from Sporty's or the like.

[Jack Tyler]

Nomore: [wish I had a first name to use...]

My bet is that the flight schools aren't updating those onboard data packages in their rental a/c for the same reason Garmin's and Jepperson's data package revenue has plummeted. There are now many alternative apps intended for tablets and phones that provide (and comply with the requirement for) the required NOAA charts and are less expensive. Also, keep in mind that a rental a/c is mostly going to be flown by pilots for whom a single sectional (or perhaps two on occasion) is adequate and they typically just don't fly that far away. That is unlikely to be you should you end up co-owning or owning your own a/c.

Tablet form factors end up being one of the most influential issues when using them in flight (especially brightness & size). Personally, while I rely on an iPhone for my back-up Foreflight capabilities, I find it inadequate and don't recommend it as a primary device. Altho' our Grumman has a decently roomy cockpit by 4-place GA standards, I've found the kneeboard appliances intended for tablets (and no doubt developed to cash in on the tablet explosion) typically obstruct the yoke/lap area too much, and are unnecessarily elaborate. The best compromise I've found for my iPad is a 'MyClip' (info and video here: http://tietco.com/board.php ) which leaves nothing on your leg other than the tablet itself. Now that the Mini is out (along with Google and Microsoft tablets of similar size), there are choices that in one sense (overall dimensions) offer a nice compromise. OTOH I find I'd still rather flight plan with the larger screen (and use the larger approach plate as well, tho' that doesn't apply in this context) so don't overlook that less is, in fact, in some ways actually less.

The FAA has formerly approved Foreflight (but no other tablet app) as an approved EFB chart source, which was done to respond to those commercial carriers who wanted to move to the digital world for their flight crews' chart bags (and no doubt to save money). Does this mean Wing-X (or Pilot or...fill in the blank) isn't as good a choice for us recreational pilots? No. But it does lend support and confidence should one experience a ramp check or when doing the Flight Review.

Those of us who fly small Part 23 GA a/c in weather are choosing to place ourselves on a continuum that has risk at one end and expediency on the other. Hopefully, we're folding in the right analysis of our skills, onboard a/c equipment and wx knowledge that we don't move to far towards the risk end of the continuum. I think the same thing is true for the SP who flies his/her LSA, except that they may be a bit further down the continuum. Yes, it's VFR flying in VMC...but for some LSA owners/pilots who hope some of their flights will involve significant distance and increased functionality, managing wx into the flight plan is going to be the norm. Is ADS-B or XM wx necessary? I have XM wx capability available for my Garmin 496 and choose not to use it due to cost. (I rely instead on my stormscope for convective wx info and ATC for the rain side of things). But that's a personal choice and I confess I do lust after an ADS-B box with its Nexrad wx pics & METARS. IMO too many SP folks haven't become comfortable using the radio, don't get advisory services from ATC often enough, and don't 'work' the Flightwatch and Flight Service info services that are available to them (and that's probably true for many PP folks as well). You won't have that problem and so might find onboard wx services to be gilding the lily.

IMO - and it's just that - one of the main features that puts Foreflight ahead of the competition right now for the NEW subscriber is that it enjoys by far the best video tutorial info available. Just drawing on the full seminar packages and tutorials available through Sporty's (all free) is remarkably informative. But as was mentioned above, this is all a very dynamic environment, it seems inevitable NOAA is going to begin levying a new fee for the use of these digital chart packages no matter where we get them, and so whatever choice you make - and whenever you make it - will subsequently look different than it does at the time of purchase.

BTW the Garmin data packages for the X96 family are sold separately and perhaps that's true of their other dedicated GPS units. So...it means the nav package can be kept current but the obstacle package only updated e.g. annually. (Not many new towers are built every year but there are thousands of nav-, comm-, airport-related changes every chart cycle). So shop for what matters to you if you are using one of Garmin's dedicated GPS units.

[FastEddieB]

Talking VFR only. Without looking at the FAR, as I recall you have to have all available knowledge about the airport at which you intend to land.

I thought it went well beyond that, and it does...

91.103
Preflight action.
Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. This information must include—
(a) For a flight under IFR or a flight not in the vicinity of an airport, weather reports and forecasts, fuel requirements, alternatives available if the planned flight cannot be completed, and any known traffic delays of which the pilot in command has been advised by ATC;

"All available information" is the catchall.

In practice, you are responsible for having access to the latest information. It will avoid...

1) Planning a flight to an airport that just closed for good (Tallahassee Commercial, 68J in my case)

2) Planning a flight to an airport whose identifier has changed since the last time you visited (Blairsville, GA changed to KDZJ in my case)

3) Flying into an airport using Unicom because you weren't aware a tower was commissioned (I think I've avoided that one) or the inverse, trying to contact a tower that's been decommissioned or changed hours of operation.

And so on.

In each of these cases, if you had an issue you could certainly be held in violation of 91.103.

NOTAMS are also your friend - a good reason to call FSS before every flight, even local ones.

If you are only going to fly VFR, you aren't required to have a current database...

Certainly true - as long as you have access to current information somewhere. I usually only update my Garmin before long trips, using WingX Pro7 in my iPhone or iPad for current information.

None of this is likely to be an issue unless you screw up, though I suppose a ramp check could reveal a deficiency. Still, common sense should prevail - just have some sort of access to current aviation information and you should be fine.

[David]

I agree with you with one exception.

Still, common sense should prevail - just have some sort of access to current aviation information and you should be fine.

Common Sense is a Oxymoron - it is not that common

[jnmeade]

I was a little too flippant in my post. Eddie's explanation is better.

[Nomore767]

Jack,

Thanks for the info and the tips, I appreciate it!

Cheers, Howard.

[KSCessnaDriver]

Since there is zero legal requirement to have charts in a light airplane, there is nothing that would make having a chart in a digital form legal or not.

[dstclair]

Question is...what do you guys do, how is it working for you? Is it better to pay the annual Garmin subscription, add XM weather, and just carry a couple of the VFR charts you'd most use, or is it still good to back up with iPad and have more redundancy then I'd need just to have access to electronic sectionals?

I've come almost 180 degrees on this question since I installed a Garmin 795. Previously, I had a 496 that I updated annually and always had my iPad+Foreflight that was current. Foreflight served as my backup, provided charts and gave me much better situational awareness than the small screen of the 496. I also have an old sectional and WAC in the plane.

Once I installed the 795, I found the iPad didn't provide the same incremental value so I've gone exclusive with the 795 ($99/year subscription) with my iPhone (which has about the same size screen as my old 496) as a backup. The iPad still travels with me on long trips but probably won't be used for in-flight aviation purposes. Still use it for ground-based flight planning, weather, etc.

I also ditched XM Weather and now have ADS-B weather/traffic via the GDL-39 which pays for itself in a bit over a year.

Given the cost of the G3X subscription, I'd suggest updating once a year (~$70) and carrying an electronic device (iPhone, iPad, Android device) with your favorite software as a backup. You might want to consider Garmin Pilot instead of WingX/Foreflight/etc. since it has virtually the same user interface as the 79x (which, I believe is the same as the G3X) and is functionally equivalent.