FAA audits could lead to LSA shakeout
By Alton K. Marsh
The FAA has chosen 29 of the original 52 manufacturers in the light sport aircraft (LSA) industry for a critical audit that could end with some companies losing their LSA approvals.
Audits have begun at a handful of the companies in the belief that there are ones out there that are not in compliance with industry standards. Sources at the first companies to be audited believe they will become a control group of companies that are in compliance with industry guidelines. The rest will be compared against them.
The light sport industry is self-regulated, voluntarily adhering to industry-agreed-upon standards.
It is believed that this could be the start of a long-rumored industry shakeout. Two years ago it was assumed such a shakeout (a reduction in the number of companies offering light sport airplanes) would be based on customer acceptance. But instead, it might now stem from government oversight.
It could take two years for all audits to be completed. Rumors of the audits are a topic of wide discussion at Oshkosh this week, and today one company confirmed to AOPA Online that the audits have begun.
August 2, 2008
Verrry Interesting!
Moderator: drseti
Can the FAA step into the ATSM standards?
Who is actually on the ATSM board that receives the original paperwork and decides to award a SLSA certificate.
What engineering review, if any, is done to the submitted data before the SLSA certificate is issued and consumer production begins
if the FAA has to come in later and do their own independent audit are they second guessing their own people?
will the audit only involve manufacturing processes/ record keeping or will it involve an independent engineering review, complete FAA flight test to determine compliance with ATSM standards.
If it is indeed a complete review of the complete flying machine and not just the company paperwork the ATSM standards system will be validated to the FAA and consumers. This will open the door to truly independent certification in other classes of aircraft / components.
I hope this is the type of audit that is done.
Who is actually on the ATSM board that receives the original paperwork and decides to award a SLSA certificate.
What engineering review, if any, is done to the submitted data before the SLSA certificate is issued and consumer production begins
if the FAA has to come in later and do their own independent audit are they second guessing their own people?
will the audit only involve manufacturing processes/ record keeping or will it involve an independent engineering review, complete FAA flight test to determine compliance with ATSM standards.
If it is indeed a complete review of the complete flying machine and not just the company paperwork the ATSM standards system will be validated to the FAA and consumers. This will open the door to truly independent certification in other classes of aircraft / components.
I hope this is the type of audit that is done.
i thought something like this would come along. there were so many that were " grand fathered " in. i myself am hoping to have an airplane LSA certified by next year. i leave for another country in a few weeks to get it and bring it over to join the whole LSA craze. guess i need to make sure all my paper work is correct .. 
While I am no expert on this process, I am going to try and answer some of these, if I'm wrong, please forgive and correct as I am always learning.
I really think it's more of, "you say you're doing things this way (which meets standards), how are you really doing them".
No, the FAA has accepted the ASTM standards as a much more flexible means of production and testing standards. See http://www.astm.org/COMMIT/COMMITTEE/F37.htmCub flyer wrote:Can the FAA step into the ATSM standards?
The FAA issues the SLSA certificate based on the manufacturer submitting the required paperwork including FAA form 8130-15 "Statement of Compliance" assuring that the aircraft is manufactured to the ATSM Standards.Cub flyer wrote:Who is actually on the ATSM board that receives the original paperwork and decides to award a SLSA certificate.
That is completely up to each manufacturer, but it MUST comply with the ATSM Standards.Cub flyer wrote:What engineering review, if any, is done to the submitted data before the SLSA certificate is issued and consumer production begins
Not really, to issue an SLSA airworthiness cert. the FAA reviews the paperwork and inspects each plane. Without a factory audit they are really trusting the factory is actually doing things according to the standards. In other words, the paperwork could say they're doing things one way and actually be doing it another.Cub flyer wrote: if the FAA has to come in later and do their own independent audit are they second guessing their own people?
Unknown, but I don't think independent engineering reviews would be necessary as long as the manufactures reviews meet the standards.Cub flyer wrote: will the audit only involve manufacturing processes/ record keeping or will it involve an independent engineering review, complete FAA flight test to determine compliance with ATSM standards.
I understand what your saying but I don't think that is the intent.Cub flyer wrote:If it is indeed a complete review of the complete flying machine and not just the company paperwork the ATSM standards system will be validated to the FAA and consumers. This will open the door to truly independent certification in other classes of aircraft / components.
I hope this is the type of audit that is done.
I really think it's more of, "you say you're doing things this way (which meets standards), how are you really doing them".
I'd like to see the FAA do a random independent flight test of a few designs to see how an airplane built to the LSA standards actually flies.
The requirements are pretty vague. Like the airplane must have positive yaw stability.
What power setting? what CG position? How many oscillations, With wheel pants installed or not. Which prop installed, engine installed, fuel on board, etc.
Stall characteristics? sure it meets the speed requirements but if you take a random airplane and go fly it how does it handle?
I just finished reading a Cosario review off avweb and it said the stall with full flaps had no warning and entered a inadvertent spin.
The next paragraph said they were ready for SLSA and ELSA certification. The manufacturer said most seaplane landings are not power off anyway?
Currently the manufacturers are self certifying they meet the standards. How honest are they. How do they interpret the rules.
Standard category had troubles also. Look at the early Cessna Cardinals, Grumman Yankee, Luscombe tails. But they had someone outside the manufacturer look at them before release to the public.
The requirements are pretty vague. Like the airplane must have positive yaw stability.
What power setting? what CG position? How many oscillations, With wheel pants installed or not. Which prop installed, engine installed, fuel on board, etc.
Stall characteristics? sure it meets the speed requirements but if you take a random airplane and go fly it how does it handle?
I just finished reading a Cosario review off avweb and it said the stall with full flaps had no warning and entered a inadvertent spin.
The next paragraph said they were ready for SLSA and ELSA certification. The manufacturer said most seaplane landings are not power off anyway?
Currently the manufacturers are self certifying they meet the standards. How honest are they. How do they interpret the rules.
Standard category had troubles also. Look at the early Cessna Cardinals, Grumman Yankee, Luscombe tails. But they had someone outside the manufacturer look at them before release to the public.
Does the FAA actually do that? On certified planes? I assumed that they just relied on the manufacturers "test pilots" and didn't employee their own.Cub flyer wrote:I'd like to see the FAA do a random independent flight test of a few designs to see how an airplane built to the LSA standards actually flies.
I don't think I'll buy that one ;>)Cub flyer wrote: I just finished reading a Cosario review off avweb and it said the stall with full flaps had no warning and entered a inadvertent spin. The next paragraph said they were ready for SLSA and ELSA certification. The manufacturer said most seaplane landings are not power off anyway?
Cub flyer wrote:
Currently the manufacturers are self certifying they meet the standards. How honest are they. How do they interpret the rules.
Hence, the audits.
AC 23-8b Chapter 2 section 23.21 #6 covers proof of compliance for standard category airplanes.
http://www.alaska.faa.gov/flt_std/aws/m ... -Part1.pdf
Depending on the FAA's experience with the manufacturer and how critical the test is determines how much oversight they have for Standard Category.
But they do review the data, participate in the test, or spot check to see if they can repeat flight test results on Standard category.
How much experience does the FAA have with any of the new LSA manufacturers?
Will an actual flight test happen in the FAA LSA audits?
Does it happen with the LAMA audits?
http://www.alaska.faa.gov/flt_std/aws/m ... -Part1.pdf
Depending on the FAA's experience with the manufacturer and how critical the test is determines how much oversight they have for Standard Category.
But they do review the data, participate in the test, or spot check to see if they can repeat flight test results on Standard category.
How much experience does the FAA have with any of the new LSA manufacturers?
Will an actual flight test happen in the FAA LSA audits?
Does it happen with the LAMA audits?
"Perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add but when there is no longer anything to take away." Antoine de Saint Exupery