Instructing in old planes
Moderator: drseti
Instructing in old planes
I know you can get most of your sport training done in a non S-LSA but can old Luscombes and Aeroncas, etc. be used for instructing and be an S-lsa since they were factory built? Or are they strictly E-lsa? I never hear anything about it so I assume that its Experimental...and probably has something to do with ASTM standards. Any insight? Thanks.
EAA has a lot of sport pilot resources, including a list of certified aircraft that are sport pilot legal. A plane doesn't have to be an LSA to be legal for a sport pilot to fly, it just as to meet the same requirements, stall speed, max continuous cruise, max two place etc.
http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/lsa/sta ... craft.html
http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/lsa/sta ... craft.html
Oops I forgot I posted this...
What I mean is if I was a Sport Pilot CFI could I train and solo students in a Standard Category LSA (such as these http://sportpilot.org/learn/lsa/standar ... craft.html) after 2010? The rules are clear concerning S-LSA and E-LSA but I can't find any info about Standard Category.
What I mean is if I was a Sport Pilot CFI could I train and solo students in a Standard Category LSA (such as these http://sportpilot.org/learn/lsa/standar ... craft.html) after 2010? The rules are clear concerning S-LSA and E-LSA but I can't find any info about Standard Category.
The way I look at it, the LSA rule describes a plane a Sport Pilot may fly solo. A plane may be SLSA, ELSE, Standard Category, or Experimental home built and meet the LSA rule and be completely legal for a Sport Pilot to fly.
Furthermore, the SLSA rule describes the construction and testing and maintenance standards for a new retail LSA that is built to ASTM standards rather than to the standard category.
While a SP can fly any plan that meets the LSA rule, to be used for training the plane must be either SLSA or standard category. ELSA and EAB can only be used for training in very special circumstances - nominally the owner can be trained but no one else.
Bottom line - you can do anything with a standard category that meets the LSA rule as you can do with an SLSA - and visa-versa as far as I can tell.
I'm no expert, just been following this for a while. There are some unusual exceptions to all this, mostly with regards to planes that have been modified some way. If a plane has ever not met the LSA rule, then in will never meet the LSA rule, even if the performance of the plane is modified in such a way the the numbers say it does meet the rule. This an be an issue for Ercoupe C/D conversions, for instance.
Ron
Furthermore, the SLSA rule describes the construction and testing and maintenance standards for a new retail LSA that is built to ASTM standards rather than to the standard category.
While a SP can fly any plan that meets the LSA rule, to be used for training the plane must be either SLSA or standard category. ELSA and EAB can only be used for training in very special circumstances - nominally the owner can be trained but no one else.
Bottom line - you can do anything with a standard category that meets the LSA rule as you can do with an SLSA - and visa-versa as far as I can tell.
I'm no expert, just been following this for a while. There are some unusual exceptions to all this, mostly with regards to planes that have been modified some way. If a plane has ever not met the LSA rule, then in will never meet the LSA rule, even if the performance of the plane is modified in such a way the the numbers say it does meet the rule. This an be an issue for Ercoupe C/D conversions, for instance.
Ron
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cavscout96
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:41 pm
- Location: Ft. Knox, Ky
one other thing.
The SLSA can only be used for hire for instruction.
No for hire, rides, photography, crop spraying, banner towing, etc.
SLSA can have no owner maintenance unless they are a mechanic. Certified has a whole list of items that can be done by a non certified mechanic owner. How often do you change spark plugs, change oil, air filters, service brakes and batteries on a SLSA? On a certified airplane the owner can do his own.
The owner of a certified airplane can obtain the factory drawings and fabricate parts for their own airplane if the processes and materials are not changed. Not with SLSA. Quite a few of the SLSA's are made from complicated molded components. When the manufacturers stop support or go away there is no way to build these parts.
Most certified airplanes are off the shelf stock parts flying in formation.
A standard category airplane is always standard if maintained properly. A SLSA becomes an ELSA when the manufacturer no longer supports it. This gives and end point for liability. When this happens is anyones guess. If you pay 125K today and the manufacturer goes out tomorrow. If nobody steps up to offer support you now have an ELSA. Not usable for hire. Seems like a risky investment to me unless the manufacturer has been around a while and seems stable.
My cub is 60+ years old. How many taxi cabs, rental cars, rented equipment is that old? Only the military uses things that long. I'd love to replace it with something newer but I have not found the replacement yet.
I've been pricing a $125K sport cub from Cub crafters. Financing for 15 years at 6.5% and figuring I'd retire it then with 7000 hours airframe time my rental rate would still be $105 per hour solo.
Even if I purchased it outright. after expenses and with a small profit kept to pay bills it would take me almost 4,000 hours to break even. And I do my own maintenance. own my own hangar, buy my own fuel bulk.
Not practical.
The SLSA can only be used for hire for instruction.
No for hire, rides, photography, crop spraying, banner towing, etc.
SLSA can have no owner maintenance unless they are a mechanic. Certified has a whole list of items that can be done by a non certified mechanic owner. How often do you change spark plugs, change oil, air filters, service brakes and batteries on a SLSA? On a certified airplane the owner can do his own.
The owner of a certified airplane can obtain the factory drawings and fabricate parts for their own airplane if the processes and materials are not changed. Not with SLSA. Quite a few of the SLSA's are made from complicated molded components. When the manufacturers stop support or go away there is no way to build these parts.
Most certified airplanes are off the shelf stock parts flying in formation.
A standard category airplane is always standard if maintained properly. A SLSA becomes an ELSA when the manufacturer no longer supports it. This gives and end point for liability. When this happens is anyones guess. If you pay 125K today and the manufacturer goes out tomorrow. If nobody steps up to offer support you now have an ELSA. Not usable for hire. Seems like a risky investment to me unless the manufacturer has been around a while and seems stable.
My cub is 60+ years old. How many taxi cabs, rental cars, rented equipment is that old? Only the military uses things that long. I'd love to replace it with something newer but I have not found the replacement yet.
I've been pricing a $125K sport cub from Cub crafters. Financing for 15 years at 6.5% and figuring I'd retire it then with 7000 hours airframe time my rental rate would still be $105 per hour solo.
Even if I purchased it outright. after expenses and with a small profit kept to pay bills it would take me almost 4,000 hours to break even. And I do my own maintenance. own my own hangar, buy my own fuel bulk.
Not practical.
Cub Flyer...not entirely accurate...
1) An owner can make any repairs or preventitive maintenance listed in the POH. So if the POH says you can change oil, spark plugs, tires, etc., you can do it. Many manufacturers are working to make their POH's in line with the part 23 permissible preventitive maintenance.
2) Molded unique parts are not an issue for all S-LSAs. Some parts may not be standard American parts but many are standard European parts. Also, for some of these aircraft (like Tecnam) parts can easily be fabricated by a metal or machine shop. I am not as familiar with the composite aircraft but I would guess that those are a little harder to make fabricated parts.
3) Where does it say that if a manufacturer goes out of business its plane reverts from an S-LSA to an E-LSA?
As for the type of certificate, an airplane either has a standard category airworthiness certificate or a special airworthiness certificate. I believe there are 8 special certificates, one of which is experimental. A part 23 aircraft that qualifies to fly under the LSA rules is not an S-LSA. It has a standard certificate and will never have an S-LSA certificate.
1) An owner can make any repairs or preventitive maintenance listed in the POH. So if the POH says you can change oil, spark plugs, tires, etc., you can do it. Many manufacturers are working to make their POH's in line with the part 23 permissible preventitive maintenance.
2) Molded unique parts are not an issue for all S-LSAs. Some parts may not be standard American parts but many are standard European parts. Also, for some of these aircraft (like Tecnam) parts can easily be fabricated by a metal or machine shop. I am not as familiar with the composite aircraft but I would guess that those are a little harder to make fabricated parts.
3) Where does it say that if a manufacturer goes out of business its plane reverts from an S-LSA to an E-LSA?
As for the type of certificate, an airplane either has a standard category airworthiness certificate or a special airworthiness certificate. I believe there are 8 special certificates, one of which is experimental. A part 23 aircraft that qualifies to fly under the LSA rules is not an S-LSA. It has a standard certificate and will never have an S-LSA certificate.
I was off on some things.
A sport pilot buying a standard category airplane like a J-3 or Vagabond cannot perform the owner maintenance items that a private pilot can. Such as changing their own oil.
The sport pilot may be able to do these things with an ELSA or SLSA depending on the items listed in the maintenance manual.
The Tecnam has a lot of flat skins but from what I saw on the factory tour photos and description they are stamp forming a lot of internal parts and heat treating them for strength. No problem and makes a nice looking airplane. Can you repair any of these parts with non heat treated aluminum? Can we get metric aluminum thicknesses in the USA?
A lot of vintage certified airplanes also have special stamped and formed parts but luckily we have companies like Univair who purchased the tooling when the manufacturers went out and kept making parts.
Also the vintage airplanes had very large production volume. Thousands of airplanes and parts were produced. A lot of parts are lying around.
LSA airframes are sent to the US and parts are ordered. Not a lot of spare stuff to dig out of barns or hangars.
The SLSA to ELSA thing I read a while back on sportpilot.org and EAA agreed when I questioned them about it. It may have changed since then.
Has anyone paid for a copy of the actual ATSM regs to see what they say on this?
A sport pilot buying a standard category airplane like a J-3 or Vagabond cannot perform the owner maintenance items that a private pilot can. Such as changing their own oil.
The sport pilot may be able to do these things with an ELSA or SLSA depending on the items listed in the maintenance manual.
The Tecnam has a lot of flat skins but from what I saw on the factory tour photos and description they are stamp forming a lot of internal parts and heat treating them for strength. No problem and makes a nice looking airplane. Can you repair any of these parts with non heat treated aluminum? Can we get metric aluminum thicknesses in the USA?
A lot of vintage certified airplanes also have special stamped and formed parts but luckily we have companies like Univair who purchased the tooling when the manufacturers went out and kept making parts.
Also the vintage airplanes had very large production volume. Thousands of airplanes and parts were produced. A lot of parts are lying around.
LSA airframes are sent to the US and parts are ordered. Not a lot of spare stuff to dig out of barns or hangars.
The SLSA to ELSA thing I read a while back on sportpilot.org and EAA agreed when I questioned them about it. It may have changed since then.
Has anyone paid for a copy of the actual ATSM regs to see what they say on this?
For example:
A big problem I had with the X air was finding the proper stainless metric pop rivets called out in a service letter from the factory to beef up the jury struts.
Nobody had the right ones. Drilling them to 1/8 or #30 made the edge distance to thin.
The factory could not cross reference into a US available rivet.
It will get better if companies like Spruce and Wicks begin stocking these items.
A big problem I had with the X air was finding the proper stainless metric pop rivets called out in a service letter from the factory to beef up the jury struts.
Nobody had the right ones. Drilling them to 1/8 or #30 made the edge distance to thin.
The factory could not cross reference into a US available rivet.
It will get better if companies like Spruce and Wicks begin stocking these items.
"Perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add but when there is no longer anything to take away." Antoine de Saint Exupery
Isn't part of the SLSA rule that all changes to the airplane must be approved by the manufacturer? If a manufacturer stopped support for a plane, or went out of business, the plane would then become unmaintainable as an SLSA after some period of time. My understanding is that you can't even change instruments or propeller to a non-originally specified one.
Of course it seems to me is should be up to the owner when to convert to an ELSA if this happens.
Maybe the SLSA rule needs some work to sort these issues out.
.
Of course it seems to me is should be up to the owner when to convert to an ELSA if this happens.
Maybe the SLSA rule needs some work to sort these issues out.
.
The best thing a small company could do is post in the maintenance manuals what material, heat treating spec, was used for all parts.
The military Stinson V-77 maintenance manual specifies a number for each tube in the structure and gives wall thicknesses, materials. They also give detailed repair procedures and wall thicknesses for splices if needed.
The Civilian SR-10 manual is terrible and very vague on what parts were used where.
The Vagabond manual is the worst because there are no drawings. just a few pages listing all the part numbers used. Luckily the Wag Aero Wagabond plans are close. Not approved data though.
Most of the old airplanes did not have the drawings released but they were leaked out over the years. The story I have gotten on the supercub was the military maintenance manuals and drawings for the L series airplanes were copied through a freedom of information act request. then they became public. Now anyone can buy a set of drawings.
The Tripacers, luscombes, ercoupes have good type clubs with drawings and technical support.
If any LSA manufacturer went out hopefully these drawings would find their way to the US and a type club formed to offer support.
We've been real lucky to have Univair to be able to buy new parts. It really helps to be able to get new parts if needed.
Where this ties into instructing is will parts be available. the training airplanes get used hard and fly more hours than the rest of the LSA fleet.
Will you be able to keep them flying or be waiting to get parts?
The military Stinson V-77 maintenance manual specifies a number for each tube in the structure and gives wall thicknesses, materials. They also give detailed repair procedures and wall thicknesses for splices if needed.
The Civilian SR-10 manual is terrible and very vague on what parts were used where.
The Vagabond manual is the worst because there are no drawings. just a few pages listing all the part numbers used. Luckily the Wag Aero Wagabond plans are close. Not approved data though.
Most of the old airplanes did not have the drawings released but they were leaked out over the years. The story I have gotten on the supercub was the military maintenance manuals and drawings for the L series airplanes were copied through a freedom of information act request. then they became public. Now anyone can buy a set of drawings.
The Tripacers, luscombes, ercoupes have good type clubs with drawings and technical support.
If any LSA manufacturer went out hopefully these drawings would find their way to the US and a type club formed to offer support.
We've been real lucky to have Univair to be able to buy new parts. It really helps to be able to get new parts if needed.
Where this ties into instructing is will parts be available. the training airplanes get used hard and fly more hours than the rest of the LSA fleet.
Will you be able to keep them flying or be waiting to get parts?
I think that is a very valid question and you have to look at the manufacturer. Are they set up to produce parts? Are they doing this on a whim and hoping to survive? That is one reason (and I know I am biased) we went with Tecnam. We are a flight school and have to be able to get parts asap. It helps that they have a hugh factory with shelves and shelves of parts. On top of that, Tecnam has contracted with a US company to provide parts warehousing. Tecnam also builds parts for much larger planes (used to do the Boeing 727 until it was not longer produced, does the Augusta helicopter, ATR, Patnavia, etc. etc.)
I agree. The Tecnam company has been around a long time.
I would also feel comfortable with a smaller company building an airplane like the eurofox that has very little in the way of specialty parts. What you need could be found from outside vendors.
Reading back into the SP original rules I see the manufacturers have the option of allowing 3rd party parts suppliers.
I would also feel comfortable with a smaller company building an airplane like the eurofox that has very little in the way of specialty parts. What you need could be found from outside vendors.
Reading back into the SP original rules I see the manufacturers have the option of allowing 3rd party parts suppliers.
"Perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add but when there is no longer anything to take away." Antoine de Saint Exupery
Tecnam Parts
As a Tecnam owner (for over 2 years) I wonder why this is the first time I've heard about this. It's typical of Tecnam USA that they don't do a very good job of communicating with their owner community. E.g, they keep coming out with new versions of the POH, and the only way I find out about it is through the owner grapevine (several of us Bravo owners have set up an informal "e-mail web" of our own). Still, as far as I'm concerned, the Tecnams are the best of the SLSAs, if one can afford them. I have yet to find another SLSA that can accommodate the full suite of avionics I feel I need to operate at the "class C" airport where I'm based - i.e., GPS/COM, NAV/COM, transponder/encoder, and an audio panel with a marker beacon receiver (no longer relevant here since all the marker beacons have been decommissioned).tadel001 wrote: Tecnam has contracted with a US company to provide parts warehousing.