Buying/owning a used Zenith 601/650 with no mechanical knowledge?

[Ducannon]

I’m considering buying a used, already-flying Zenith 601/650. It seems to be one of the more affordable aircraft out there, (some are priced around $30k), and research tells me that parts are readily available and inexpensive. However, I have no mechanical knowledge of working on aircraft (or any type of machinery, for that matter).

One of the big perks of owning an experimental aircraft vs. certified is being able to perform your own maintenance, and hiring an A&P defeats this purpose, as you don’t really save the money you would by doing it yourself. Though I don’t think ownership would be any MORE expensive than owning certified (correct me if I’m wrong). Can a Zenith still be a good aircraft to own, so long as I have someone who is knowledgeable do the prebuy, and also make sure there is a tech who is able/willing to perform maintenance on the aircraft (that itself can be a proverbial hurdle to overcome when owning experimental)?

[JimParker256]

The following is my opinion only.

It is perfectly "legal" (assuming you're in the USA) for "anyone" to work on your experimental amateur built (EAB) airplane, as long as the annual condition inspection is done by either the holder of the maintenance certificate (usually the original builder – not transferable), or by any certified A&P mechanic (does NOT have to hold the IA certificate).

Having said that, there's "legal" and there's "smart"... You state that you have "no mechanical knowledge of working on aircraft (or any type of machinery, for that matter)." If I were in your situation, I would find a trusted A&P mechanic, and have that person either A) perform all of the maintenance on my aircraft, or B) supervise me closely as I followed his/her instructions in performing the maintenance myself. Even the slowest, simplest airplane flies just fast enough and far enough to kill you (and possibly any passengers along for the ride) if you make bad enough mistakes. Either leave it to the pros to maintain it, or ensure you are being taught how to maintain it by a pro.

Now for the hard part: Finding an A&P willing to maintain your airplane – or more accurately, your engine. Pretty much any A&P should be qualified and capable of maintaining the airframe of your Zenith – all the construction techniques and materials are relatively common. It's the engine that many A&Ps will be more concerned about. You didn't specify engine type, but Rotax 912s are becoming common enough that some A&Ps are getting some training and starting to work on them. But if you've got "something else" (UL Power, Jabiru, or ???) your odds get lower and lower that you'll find an A&P mechanic who is "qualified" to work on it. (And a "good" A&P will NOT agree to work on something they have zero training and experience with...)

Before I spent the money to buy that airplane, I would make sure I found an A&P willing to work on it. A good place to start is your local EAA chapter. There are often A&Ps who are chapter members who might be more willing to work on it than others. And you just might get lucky enough to find someone who knows your particular engine type.

For instance, here in the DFW area, we happen to have a Jabiru aircraft dealer, and his maintenance shop knows that engine inside-out. And I got lucky in that my A&P buddy (who worked on the "certified" aircraft I used to own) happens to employ an A&P/IA that has been to Rotax school, and actually likes the Rotax engines. But I have a buddy with a UL Power engine (nice engine, by the way) who has found absolutely no one around here that will touch it.

Good luck!

[Ducannon]

Thanks for your reply. I’m leaning towards the Viking engine (Viking 130].and if the aircraft I buy doesn’t have that engine, I’d probably have it replaced with a Viking later down the road.

[drseti]

Be advised (by someone who is a mechanic) that an engine swap is a non-trivial endeavor. You may end up having to change out hoses, fuel and oil pumps, control cables, accessories, wiring, exhaust and cooling systems, prop, spinner, prop spacer, just about everything forward of the firewall, and sometimes the firewall itself. In other words, it can become a complete rebuild. Next, you have to repeat Phase 1 flight testing (this is a major modification which makes it a different aircraft), determine fuel burn to calculate range, speed, and endurance at various power settings. And then, you have to reweigh the aircraft when you're done, to determine if it will still be in the safe center of gravity range under all possible loading conditions - and if it isn't, either restrict its operations or start modifying the airframe. It's usually better to either buy a plane with the engine you want, or learn to live with the engine it's already available with.

[drseti]

Another thing you need to know about the Zenith 601/650 series is that, about 13 years ago, the entire fleet was grounded due to a claimed design flaw that led to several fatal accidents. ZenAir came up with a fix involving a major main spar modification. Presumably, the whole fleet was upgraded before the planes were returned to service. But a few unmodified ones may still be out there (probably offered for sale at very tempting prices). Don't be tempted! Make sure a knowledgeable mechanic verifies that the wing spar mod has been performed on any Zenith you are considering buying.

FWIW, a couple of my former students have 601s (that were upgraded). One has a Jabaru engine, the other a Corvair. They fly great, and make good primary LSA trainers. But when you shop, make sure you get a prebuy from someone who knows the type. You can find info on the prebuy process here:

http://avsport.org/maint/prebuy.htm

Or watch my video "How to Buy a Used LSA":

http://avsport.org/webinars/videos/prebuy.mp4

[Ducannon]

Be advised (by someone who is a mechanic) that an engine swap is a non-trivial endeavor. You may end up having to change out hoses, fuel and oil pumps, control cables, accessories, wiring, exhaust and cooling systems, prop, spinner, prop spacer, just about everything forward of the firewall, and sometimes the firewall itself. In other words, it can become a complete rebuild. Next, you have to repeat Phase 1 flight testing (this is a major modification which makes it a different aircraft), determine fuel burn to calculate range, speed, and endurance at various power settings. And then, you have to reweigh the aircraft when you're done, to determine if it will still be in the safe center of gravity range under all possible loading conditions - and if it isn't, either restrict its operations or start modifying the airframe. It's usually better to either buy a plane with the engine you want, or learn to live with the engine it's already available with.

Thanks I will keep this in mind. Let me ask this; if the aircraft has the brand of engine I like, but I want to replace it with an engine of different horsepower (Viking 110 to Viking 130, or 100 hp Corvair to 120 hp Corvair, etc.), is this somewhat more simple than swapping brands? I imagine the aircraft would still need to be reweighed, but would the firewall and all the other systems remain the same?

[drseti]

If the physical dimensions are the same (say, the same crankcase, but with different pistons and cylinders, or higher compression heads), then the swap should be much easier. But if it's a completely different engine from the same manufacturer (as in replacing a Rotax 912 with a Rotax 915), it could turn into an untenably complex project.

[JimParker256]

Dr. Paul can correct me if I'm mistaken, but it is my understanding that replacing the engine with anything other than the exact same make and model triggers that "major change" clause in the airworthiness certificate, requiring the airplane go back through Phase 1 testing. So it would be my understanding that going from the Viking 110 to the Viking 130 would mean re-certification and re-testing.

Also, you might want to check some of the online forums for comments and feedback about the business practices of the principal of that company. There are a LOT of truly pissed-off former customers who have little good to say about him or his company. Then there are others who swear by the new engine and company. You won't find much negativity on Viking's own forums, since it's common knowledge that the company deletes any negative posts on their own site, and aggressively attacks anyone who comments negatively elsewhere. (Note that I've go no skin in that game at all. I've never done business with the company – nor with the previous (now bankrupt) companies the owner operated prior to Viking. I do know a couple of people who dealt with him in the past, and are quite bitter about the experience.)

The other comment I would make is that you'll be hard-pressed to find an A&P that has the training and/or experience to work on (and possibly more important) sign off an inspection for the Viking engine. Think carefully about that BEFORE you take the plunge. A bargain airplane that you cannot maintain and keep "legal" is no bargain at all.

You may also want to talk to your insurer. Some underwriters charge much higher premiums for non-mainstream engines (meaning anything other than Lycoming, Continental, or Rotax). As a low-time pilot, your insurance costs are going to be fairly high anyway, but that just might put it out of reach.

[drseti]

Dr. Paul can correct me if I'm mistaken, but it is my understanding that replacing the engine with anything other than the exact same make and model triggers that "major change" clause in the airworthiness certificate, requiring the airplane go back through Phase 1 testing.

Yes, Jim, that is also my understanding.

[rcpilot]

To add to what Paul has already said, I believe that the Zenith 601 or 650 are good choices. I purchased my 2004 vintage 601 for the purpose of getting my sport pilot license. First, you want to make sure, as Paul said, that the plane has the "B" mod which was what the company did to fix the "design error" in the wing. They have a good useful load(mine is 592 lbs). I have a 100 HP Rotax 912. It's a reliable and easily maintained engine. I'm mechanically inclined and I do a lot of the maintenance myself and help my A&P when he does the annual. You may also want to look at the Zenith forum. Good luck.

[zodiac flyer]

I purchased an AMD Factory built 610XLB in 2014 with 400 hours on it, I almost immediately switched it to a ELSA from a SLSA so I can do my own condition inspections with the two day course offered by Rainbow aviation. It was a terrific buy, new price was $100K, as the reputation of the aircraft was literally in the toilet. I paid $35K for the aircraft with Dynon Glass and Garmin digital radios and transponders. None of the upgraded 601 XL's or 650's have come apart as far as i know.
As far as your knowledge, if your not very mechanically inclined you can try to learn under an A & P or just pay to have it worked on and inspected.
The plane meets my mission as I generally fly solo, use 5 gallons an hour of ethanol free mogas, so it burns about $15.00 an hour. Insurance with full hull coverage (45K) is about $1200 a year. I have over 800 hours and have no regrets.
There are great buys out there if you look, I would stay away from Corvair or Jabiru powered versions. But thats just my opinion based on what I have observed.
My plane has a Continental 0-200 and is pretty reliable and easy work on and get parts. If my engine exploded tomorrow I would seriously confer a Viking 130-150 hp motor. The 0-200 is just too slow, but I'm not in a hurry when I fly, 100 mph seems the same as 130 mph when your just sightseeing.
Dave
N601XP

[David]

Dr. Paul can correct me if I'm mistaken, but it is my understanding that replacing the engine with anything other than the exact same make and model triggers that "major change" clause in the airworthiness certificate, requiring the airplane go back through Phase 1 testing.

Yes, Jim, that is also my understanding.

I agree with Paul also not sure if the new owner not the builder could do the work since the repairman’s certificate is given to the builder. You would need an A&P to sign off and the put back into phase 1 with FAA involvement.

Disclaimer I could be way off, but I think that is the way it would work

[3Dreaming]

With experimental anyone can do the work, no repairman certificate required. Generally the FSDO is required to be notified to put the airplane back into phase 1 flight testing. The only requirement for credentials is for performing the condition inspection. If it is a ELSA, the new owner can do the 16 hour course for the LSRM-I rating to do their own inspections.

[drseti]

Tom is correct (as usual). For a deeper dive into this subject, see my webinars "who can do what to whom" at:

http://avsport.org/webinars/videos/LSA_maint.mp4

And "fast track to Experimental" at:

http://avsport.org/webinars/videos/elsa.mp4