Hourly cost for LSA on the rise

psjoe · Post by **psjoe** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:49 am

A local school in central NJ just raised the hourly price for it's LSA rental to $125. Is this a trend across the country?

I started training locally, so far 3 hrs., in a C-152 which is $80/Hr. wet. Another difference is that the school woith the C-152 is $35/hr for cfi vs $45/hr at above mentioned school with LSA. I was planning on doing 5-8 hrs then moving to the school with the LSA but if prices keep going up on LSA rentals I may look at Rec. pilot as opposed to SP.

To sum up cfi and C-152 is $115/hr, local SP school would be $170/ hr for LSA and cfi.

zaitcev · Post by **zaitcev** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:23 pm

It's just inflation, I think. Rates for my usual Arrow went from $158 to $162 in 2012 too.

RyanShort1 · Post by **RyanShort1** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:30 am

I was doing the math today and I think if I had my own Cub to use on leaseback, I think I would need a minimum of $95/hr just to make it viable. A big chunk of that is insurance.

Ryan

drseti · Post by **drseti** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:48 am

Ryan is right; insurance costs dominate. Figure $5000/yr for an LSA used in primary training (more if it's conventional landing gear). If you can amortize that cost over, say, 500 flight hours per year, that brings the insurance burden down to only $10/hr. But, if you have a bad weather year (as did I, this past year), your flight hours can easily drop in half, which effectively doubles insurance costs, along with all other fixed costs. Add to that the fact that 100 hour inspections and service bulletin compliance for LSAs typically run twice what they do for certified aircraft, and you can see that the promise of cheap training isn't panning out.

On the other hand, for a personally owned LSA, insurance costs are much less, as are maintenance costs (you can dispense with the 100 hour inspection, do your own annuals with only a 16 hour LSRI course, and some service bulletins become optional). Plus, when you compare new to new, LSA prices are still reasonable (consider that a Cherokee Archer now costs $300,000). And, if you're fortunate enough to live in a state where mogas is still ethanol-free, fuel costs become trivial. So, LSA flying can still make sense, once you get beyond the training/rental barrier.

Jack Tyler · Post by **Jack Tyler** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:29 am

psjoe, the issues can extend well beyond insurance cost alone. Yes, insuring a $100K-$130K LSA will obviously require a higher premium than insuring a $15K-$25K 150 or 152. And we've seen reports here and on other forums that this isn't just due to the difference in hull value but also the insurance carrier's uncertainty about how robust these LSAs are when used as trainers and how uncertain they are about the accident/incident rates they can expect, given how new some of these models are and how few years some training schools have been using them. Insurers do not like 'uncertainty' and price their coverage accordingly, and insurers face no uncertainty about Cessna 150's being used as trainers.

Beyond that, a school probably owns the Cessna 150 outright so the plane's cost to the school, after insurance, equates to the plane's maintenance (short-term and long-term) costs. Schools with one or more late model LSAs will need to add a financing cost to what they charge. And to answer one of your Q's, I do think you are describing somewhat of a trend. I'm down in Florida but, when I was researching the local flight schools who offered SP training, I found a similar pricing difference (for use of an LSA vs. a conventional a/c & PPL training). The conventional 150 cost/hour was perhaps 2/3 that of the nearly new LSA. And while it was a small data pool, my impression is that it was the 'full service' and 'modern' flight school (at least in image, marketing and facilities) that not only financed the purchase of new LSA's for their (also new) SP curriculum but also had a higher per hour instructor cost. (I could find no reason why the instructor charge 'should' have been higher).

One thing that surprised me about the 2011 LSA Expo in Sebring - we'll see what Paul and others report about the state of the industry at 2012's Expo - was that several SP flight schools had their LSAs on display and were simultaneously selling their flight programs while trying to sell their instructional and demo LSAs. That suggested demand for training and brokered LSAs had not been what was expected. When you think about Paul's comment that a variable like weather can influence the training revenue a given LSA can provide to the school - and then you factor in the limited actual interest in SP training - it's easy to see how that ratchets up the per hour cost.

My suggestion for you is to revisit your rationale for wanting a SP license in the context of your local area's circumstances. To your point, why not seek a RP license (which can be used towards obtaining a PPL over time, if you choose)? Think about your post-checkride flying: What will a typical rental cost be (LSA vs. conventional) and how many rentals (of LSAs vs. Part 23 a/c) are available in your area? As we've seen posted here many times, both the availability and cost of renting a Part 23 a/c may argue, in your case, for pursuing a RP license. And lower post-license renting costs (of a conventional a/c) might help pay back the additional cost of the RP or PP license. (So long as you rent, my bet is that the fuel consumption and fuel costs of LSA and 150 class a/c will be very similar).

Whatever you decide, good luck on your training. Because whatever you decide, it's the flying that's the joy.

Helen · Post by **Helen** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:06 am

This has always been the trend in aviation. Of course its the trend in general of commodities in a capitalist society.

I had an interesting conversation at an airshow last year with an older gentleman who just wanted someone to complain to. He started going on and on about how when he was a kid "planes were only a dollar" or some such figure and how now flying had become "a hobby only for the rich."

I looked at him and said, "Sir, how much were you paying for a gallon of milk back then?" He walked off.

Helen

Jack Tyler · Post by **Jack Tyler** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:45 am

Except Joe isn't talking about the general increase in cost of renting an a/c or hiring an instructor. He's pointing out the difference for his area in pricing those services at a flight school offering SP training in an LSA and one offering RP/PP training in a Part 23 a/c. If the milk costs $3/half gal at one store and $4 at another, it makes one evaluate more carefully why one should pay $4 for the milk.

RyanShort1 · Post by **RyanShort1** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:55 am

Jack Tyler wrote:Except Joe isn't talking about the general increase in cost of renting an a/c or hiring an instructor. He's pointing out the difference for his area in pricing those services at a flight school offering SP training in an LSA and one offering RP/PP training in a Part 23 a/c. If the milk costs $3/half gal at one store and $4 at another, it makes one evaluate more carefully why one should pay $4 for the milk.

There are tons of factors why prices might go up. The cost of fuel might have changed, there might have been an "incident" that caused the school's insurance to go up, or they might have done the math at the end of the year and figured they didn't want to lose any more money. A flight school I worked with a while back had our rent doubled by the city because they randomly decided that the property was worth more. That nearly killed the school and we had to move quickly, which also cost us money.

Ryan

Jack Tyler · Post by **Jack Tyler** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:00 pm

Exactly. Lots of variables. Some are unique to the flight school (or even instructor), some to the airport, and some to the area (e.g. availability of E0 mogas). So the student/customer/consumer is best served by a) scanning the scene and seeing who's charging how much for what but also b) looking at how s/he hopes to use the license, and so what license(s) serve those needs at what cost, and then shopping wisely with one eye on being a student but the other eye on being a pilot/renter.

The SP curriculum (and the LSA a/c in which it is usually taught) might be the latest but may not be the greatest. That's for the student/customer/consumer - in this case, Joe - to decide.

designrs · Post by **designrs** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:25 am

Jack Tyler wrote:...and then shopping wisely with one eye on being a student but the other eye on being a pilot/renter.

+1
Very well said Jack.

JoeM · Post by **JoeM** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:03 pm

Something that would help the problem would be to allow hours training in a non-LSA aircraft (C-152) to be applied to your SP training time. Basic pilot skills and navigation can be learned and practiced in any suitable training type aircraft. A current PP only needs to get checked out in the type LSA aircraft to be allowed to fly it. If I could do the majority of my training time in a 152 and then spend about 5 hours in the Jabaru to get checked out and certified, it would be a lot more affordable. The flight school would still make money as I would still rent their aircraft after getting certified.

Good idea but I don't see it hapening.

RyanShort1 · Post by **RyanShort1** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:11 pm

JoeM wrote:Something that would help the problem would be to allow hours training in a non-LSA aircraft (C-152) to be applied to your SP training time. Basic pilot skills and navigation can be learned and practiced in any suitable training type aircraft. A current PP only needs to get checked out in the type LSA aircraft to be allowed to fly it. If I could do the majority of my training time in a 152 and then spend about 5 hours in the Jabaru to get checked out and certified, it would be a lot more affordable. The flight school would still make money as I would still rent their aircraft after getting certified.

Good idea but I don't see it hapening.

I think they can be already, but 20 hours isn't a whole lot of time for a rookie to get to know the airplane they'll take for the checkride, and the 5 hours of savings is probably not worth the trouble.

Ryan

comperini · Post by **comperini** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:29 am

JoeM wrote:Something that would help the problem would be to allow hours training in a non-LSA aircraft (C-152) to be applied to your SP training time.

It already can.

A current PP only needs to get checked out in the type LSA aircraft to be allowed to fly it.

No check out is required by the FAA. You can hop in it and fly it with no checkout required (as long as its the same category/class as your certificate).

Don't confuse what FBO or insurance requirements for "checkout" are, with what the FAA requires.

JoeM · Post by **JoeM** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:02 am

I think they can be already, but 20 hours isn't a whole lot of time for a rookie to get to know the airplane they'll take for the checkride, and the 5 hours of savings is probably not worth the trouble. ]

I will look into this, I know I will be going way over 20 hours to complete my training as my limited budget is causing long gaps between a few hours of flying. I am just enjoying being able to fly at this point and will continue to try to get a few hours each month for a while. I will try to put together about 10 hours close together when I feel I am ready to take the test. I've accepted it will take a lot longer this way, flying just a little is better than none at all.

Jack Tyler · Post by **Jack Tyler** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:50 am

Joe, given that you made the choice to 'train as you can pay' rather than first saving the cash the whole program will require, I certainly agree with you that sticking with the training, even if at a slow pace, is better than losing most of what you've already gained.

Given that choice, here's a suggestion for you. I've been at your airport a number of times recently and it's struck me that (the foreign student cadre aside) it's pretty busy for its small size and almost everyone seems to fly by themselves. I'd encourage you to network with the others you know on the field and walk into those open hangars where so many projects are being worked on and a/c are fondled, and see if you can't supplement your training time with some passenger time on local flights. A good example are all the local flights to Sat and Sun breakfasts in the area. You've got an ideal background (avionics tech from your military days) to offer some perspective on an owner's panel or niggly electronics issues they might have. And even with no flight responsibilities, being in the air and 'in the system' will help with things like radio procedures and teach you a bit about how different pilots employ different techniques for the same ultimate result (a good example being cross-wind landings, since almost every landing at your airport is one).

KCOI seems like a pretty friendly, inclusive place to me.