Learning to Land

[yozz25]

I would say that most of the craft in this little fleet have their indicator in kts.

Only the one I use is in mph on outer ring. Thus instructor is yelling 70 kts, I'm searching to make sure, but now know when in this craft, I should simply look at the 80 and concentrate on hitting that mark when doing the landing maneuver.

I was researching speed indicator meters and yes I saw that you can still buy a few with this type, MPH big outside, configuration.

The climbout I sort of eyeball on this craft, I'd lose my mind converting. But landing, I need to be a bit more focused on air speed, on this craft 80 it is. No wonder I like flying the other warrior in fleet.

Another quesion, perhaps I'm better off flying in the cessna 172, any thoughts, but hate to change for the time being, but would like to try it.
yozz

[ka7eej]

Due to the fact that this a Sport Pilot forum. I would like to offer a little different opinon of landing a SLSA.. My CFI, when I was first learning to fly in an Allegro 2000, was teaching me to land with the "full stall" ..."full flap".. I spent hours and hours trying to learn this way. I had a very difficult time trying to get comfortable landing like this. By reading on this forum and on CTFLYER.com I learned to land with a lttle power 2600-2800 RPM and 15 degree flaps..on Rotax 912S...... Wow WHAT A DIFFERENCE...Better confidence level now and I have now learned how to do a full flap , full stall landing.. However I have to say when you are a new student pilot is was better for me to build confidence learning to land with some power,and minimum flaps to help keep better control of the airplane, and then learn other flap, power settings....Light SLSA land different than heaver GA airplanes.. That has been proven over and over....in the last 2 years..

[FastEddieB]

I learned to land with a lttle power 2600-2800 RPM and 15 degree flaps...Better confidence level now and I have now learned how to do a full flap , full stall landing.

If that worked for you, great!

But an instructor always has to worry about the "Law of Primacy". Students will tend to learn best what they learn first. Put another way, "old habits are hard to break".

There are lots and lots of pilots who are "more comfortable" landing just a little fast with a little less than full flaps and with maybe a touch of power.

To my mind, all these are band-aids. The best landings, overall, are made with full flaps, power at idle from a decent height, and speed bled off until it can't be bled off any more.

Your instructor may have had other ideas, and the proof here is that they worked for you - good job!

But, in general, if any pilot needs extra speed, partial flaps or power to be "comfortable" on landing, what he or she really needs is more dual.

And now, my usual disclaimer/request:

I have not flown a CT. But if anyone can find their way to the N GA mountains in one (when its not so freakin' cold), I'd love to swap rides and stories.

[CharlieTango]

...

But an instructor always has to worry about the "Law of Primacy". Students will tend to learn best what they learn first. Put another way, "old habits are hard to break".

There are lots and lots of pilots who are "more comfortable" landing just a little fast with a little less than full flaps and with maybe a touch of power.

To my mind, all these are band-aids. The best landings, overall, are made with full flaps, power at idle from a decent height, and speed bled off until it can't be bled off any more.
...

But, in general, if any pilot needs extra speed, partial flaps or power to be "comfortable" on landing, what he or she really needs is more dual.

...

very well put eddie, i have been arguing this same concept for years. the ctsw is far harder to full stall then most but that doesn't mean it isn't a good idea to become proficient and make it a normal landing technique.

i did a nice full stall with full flaps in Van Nuys, CA 2 days ago and my girlfriend said it wasnt' a good landing. i was perfectly happy with it, she now expects every tochdown to be so soft that you need to sense the wheels spinning to know you are on the ground.

[drseti]

When I started flying in 1961 (in an Aeronca 7AC Champ), every landing was power off, full stall - unless we were practicing wheel landings. For thirty years, I owned and flew a rather heavy Beechcraft, which had to be landed with a touch of power, and flown onto the runway. (Sure, you could do a full stall landing in it, but it would be classified more as an arrival.) So, now that I've downsized to LSA, I'm having to relearn my Champ landings all over again. Fun!

[FastEddieB]

For thirty years, I owned and flew a rather heavy Beechcraft, which had to be landed with a touch of power, and flown onto the runway.

Most of my Beechcraft time was in a Debonaire and smaller (Sundowner and Sierra), with maybe a little Bonanza time. Most of it was a long time ago, but I don't recall them being particularly nose-heavy.

I did fly a Cessna P210 quite a bit, and with two pilots up front, it certainly was nose-heavy. I still don't recall typically needing power on landing.

But I'll admit there may be certain planes with certain loadings where a bit of power my cushion the impact of the nosewheel after touchdown. But it's the exception, rather than the rule.

[FastEddieB]

BTW, an anecdote:

I got my multi in a raggedy old Apache at Tamiami Airport in the late 70's.

On my first landing, I held it off and held it off and held it off until the stall warning went off and the plane plotzed satisfyingly on the runway at or very near the stall. Nose came down gently.

I smiled inside, thinking I had done a good job, when the instructor yelled:

"Dammit Benson, this isn't a g*ddamned Cessna, and you can't fly it like one!"

I learned that he liked faster touchdowns, and I did learn to do them his way, at least while I was with him.

But an Apache, or an Aztec, or a Cirrus or Columbia CAN be flown like a Cessna - at least all the basics are the same.

Admittedly, jets are different, and full-stall landings are frowned upon by carrier jocks ("Flare to land...squat to pee!"). But again, that's the exception, not the rule, and has no relevance to the planes most of us get to fly.

[ka7eej]

Once again, most of you commenting have lots of time as a private pilot in a GA aircraft. Your comment of needing more dual may be correct but after 60+ hours of dual and over 300 landings I did not gain any confidence until I switched to the powered, less flaps landings when I soloed.. My Allergo 2000 POH says "to land do not try to flare the aircraft but to fly it onto the runway much like landing on a carrier". This is the first and only airplane that I have flown. I am just trying to reach out to other first time pilots to present another point of view. After all, this class of pilots is a large segment of the Sport Pilot movement..Charlie Tango. I have followed you comments for 2 years on landings. I know your point of view, but you have NEVER been a new pilot learning to fly in an SLSA. This worked for me and I know it will work for others so I feel I need to present it for other new pilots. I do respect the fact for experienced pilots the full stall full flap landing may be the landing of choice. My 647 lb plane does get moved around by wind even when loaded to its full weight of 1230 lbs(Thought to be the original SLSA weight limit, then changed to the current 1320) so Yes It works fo me!!

[drseti]

Charlie Tango. I have followed you comments for 2 years on landings. I know your point of view, but you have NEVER been a new pilot learning to fly in an SLSA.

I can't speak for Charlie Tango, but I'll respond here for myself. When I took my first lesson (1961) there were, of course, no SLSAs. However, most every trainer back then met the standards which now define the SLSA. Like many of my generation, I started in an Aeronca 7AC Champ. 1220 pounds max gross wt, 65 HP Continental engine, 100 MPH maximum speed, 85 MPH cruise speed, 38 MPH stall speed. Doesn't that sound just a bit like an SLSA?

Oh, and we were taught to full-stall them on landing. So it can be done by a primary student in a light aircraft.

That said, if you are comfortable and safe using the technique you've been taught, I'd be the last to criticize. If you ever fly with me, however, I'll try to teach you some alternative techniques, so you can have more than one tool in your arsenal.

Safe Skies and 73,
Paul (N6TX)

[ka7eej]

Fast Eddie, Using you theory of "Law of Primacy" a CFI should start a student with 60 degree steep turns at max maneuvering speed and power on stalls at full power???
Did you really mean to tell me to take more dual and that what works for me is a Band Aid?... How dare you...Remember that this forum is read by prospective new sport pilots.. Lets all do our best to promote growth in the sport and Yes safe flying. You too have NEVER been a new student learning to fly in a SLSA... I have!


Charlie Tango... I was hoping to meet you last year in Page...Sorry you could not make it...It was a great time and my Allegro 2000 was well accepted by all the CT drivers there..

[ka7eej]

Drseti
You guys just don't get it... You state. "If you ever fly with me, however, I'll try to teach you some alternative techniques, so you can have more than one tool in your arsenal. " If you were to read and understand my post I said that I was taught the slow, full stall power off landings to the tune of 60+ hours dual and over 300 landings. I also stated that I did not get confident with landing in general until I practiced solo min flap, powered landings.. After that I went back to practicing full flap (48 degree in my plane) and no flap landing and NOW feel comfortable with all... So there is not only one tool in my arsenal as you stated...Just let me get my point across to the new student who is struggling like I was and maybe, just maybe they too will continue to fly instead of giving up in frustration.. By the way were you 58 or older when you first learned to fly 49 years ago? Any chance what age you start makes a difference?

[drseti]

By the way were you 58 or older when you first learned to fly 49 years ago?

Well, if I were, I'd be at least 107 now, so -- no!

Any chance what age you start makes a difference?

You make a very good point. And, I suspect there are more factors than age that impact one's learning style.

I certainly never advocate a "one size fits all" curriculum. I'm just trying to share my own experience. Clearly, you have to find what works for you (and it sounds as though you have).

Fly safely, and enjoy!

[ka7eej]

Paul,

Thanks.... BTW... My 18 year old son had 8 hours in the Allegro 2000 and was cleared to solo... He now has 20 dual 5 solo, passed his written, and is ready for solo X-country, and just a few more hours away from a check ride... He is using my 2nd CFI..That one that I progressed more with...and lands better in all flap conditions than I do.... So YES. "one size does not fit all"" He just has a better aptitude for flying that I do... He also does not have major Dollars invested in the plane and has little fear, just enough , as many 18 year olds have....It will be fun to be the co-pilot on our trips and to share this experience with him..

[CharlieTango]

...Charlie Tango. I have followed you comments for 2 years on landings. I know your point of view, but you have NEVER been a new pilot learning to fly in an SLSA...

i learned to fly in a single seat quad city challenger, the type of fat ultralight that light sport was created to bring into a legal category. it looked a lot like this but with a single seat.



i finished the build and was doing some high speed taxi testing and it lept of the ground and suddenly i was a pilot. i was using an early version of microsoft flight similator and i was planning on getting some dual but the landing (full flaperons ) came so easily that i flew part 103 for years and eventually got a ppl.

i haven't seen my old challenger since 1992 but i bet it is an elsa today.

[FastEddieB]

... How dare you...

WOW!

Sorry.

As background, I have about 4,500 hours as an instructor. Done a pretty good job at it over the years.

I was really, really trying to be helpful, but feel free to ignore anything or everything I said.

Happy flying!