Learning to Land

[drseti]

As background, I have about 4,500 hours as an instructor.

You have a good thousand hours on me, Eddie. I'd sure like to fly with you sometime -- bet it would be fun, and I know I've still got a thing or two to learn.

Safe skies,
Paul

[FastEddieB]

I'd sure like to fly with you sometime...

How dare you!!!

Oh, wait...

....that was someone else.

Never mind...



Seriously, me too. I have friends that live in Mill Hall, right near Lock Haven.

Maybe some time this spring or summer Karen and l will try to make it up that way, if you don't make it south first.

I just looked it up, and its only 492 nm - easily doable in a day with probably just one fuel stop (even in my speed-impaired Sky Arrow )

If you do make it down this way (nearest airport is Copperhill, TN (1A3)), I have a second home here you'd be welcome to stay at. It would be a nice mid-point if headed south to Sebring or Lakeland or other points south.

BTW, this is an open invitation - I'd love to meet other LSA owners on this site as well!

[ka7eej]

Funny ...... Is this your way to win friends and influence people? You have inferred or stated as fact that I use "band aids" in my training, I need more dual time, and that "The best landings, overall, are made with full flaps, power at idle from a decent height".

In your 4500 hours as a flight instructor, have you ever had someone quit using you?


I am just trying to learn how to fly safely, share my personal experiences with others like me, have fun and promote light sport.. Please help people on this site become sport pilots..If you are instructing in a light sport I would hope you would not stoop to trying to embarrass a student.

Do you really need to make fun of me as well?

[FastEddieB]

In your 4500 hours as a flight instructor, have you ever had someone quit using you?

Of course. You can't be all things to all people.

Sorry if my sarcasm offended you.

Please help people on this site become sport pilots...

That's honestly all my original post was trying to do. I made some suggestions. At no cost, of course. My motivation was sincerely just to share whatever level of expertise I have with others. At least one other poster thought my post was "very well put", so it can't have been THAT far off base.

I have some reputation as a "trouble-shooter". IOW, often I have students referred to me who have hit plateaus, have trouble with landings, that sort of thing. I think I'm pretty good at it. I've "finished up" a lot of students - in fact, I'd say more than half of my sign-offs started with someone else and ended up with me.

Anyway it was never my intent to belittle or embarrass anyone. Your "...how dare you..." really, really surprised me - re-reading my original post I still don't see where its offensive. My comments were addressed to "the many pilots" who land too fast, or with partial flaps, or with power. They were the ones I was suggesting might need some dual. Since you've moved beyond that and are making full stall landings, they weren't even addressed to you at all.

But if it offended you in any way, again I apologize, and I'm still able and willing to provide advice to the extent that I can.

Sorry if we got off on the wrong foot.

[yozz25]

Eddie:

Being an older student. 57, I have a 23 year old instructor, good kid, but need to realize that I react more slowly and deliberately.

I don't automatically pull up when he says to at 55 kts, rather at 60 with plenty of runway in front of me.

But the landings are a problem in that I find it disturbing how he sort of freaks pulling up upon flare. I need someone to be calmer, more soothing which I believe is key in teaching.

I'm giving the young guy a chance, but in teaching patience is key, and a soothing attitude is key especially with older students.

Teaching as I'm sure you know has to be smooth, feel smooth both to student and instructor.

Come out to nevada and give me a shot, just kidding
yozz

[CharlieTango]

yozz,

i'll chime in with my 2 cents till eddie has a chance.

almost nothing in aviation (iminent bird strike or mid air collision are exceptions) requires "freaking" or sudden/panicked reaction.

if you instructor has to pull up to avoid contacting the nose gear he needs to do it early enough that he isn't "freaking."

perhaps you could ask him to provide his verbal input just a big sooner to give you a little more time to react.

perhaps you could anticipate and achieve the planned speed without his input. once your on approach you could have a mental ryme going "too fast? to slow? to high? to low?"

[FastEddieB]

But the landings are a problem in that I find it disturbing how he sort of freaks pulling up upon flare. I need someone to be calmer, more soothing which I believe is key in teaching.

Good points, all.

My primary training was about 35 years ago. Yet I still remember my instructor grabbing the controls from me on final and yelling "Dammit, Benson, look what I can make this plane do!" and horsing the plane around.

I understand I was "under-controlling", which CAN be frustrating to an instructor. Still, I completed my private in spite of, not because of, some of the techniques my instructor employed.

Still, try to empathize with your instructor's situation. He's walking a very fine line. Take control of the plane too soon, and the student doesn't get to see the results of his actions (or inaction). But wait a second or so too long, and, well...

But, still, I think of the Dog Whisperer advising dog owners to be "calm and assertive". The calm part is difficult if the instructor is fighting to avoid incipient disaster.

I don't know if you've seen the following, but it gives me chills:

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/exclusi ... 722-1.html

I can imagine being in the right seat and waiting to see if the student can save the situation. And then...

[yozz25]

I already know the pattern by heart, get 1000 feet agl, paralell runway downwind, enrich mix, engage elec fuel pump, drop flaps in safe range and begin decent, at 45 to runway, go to base leg, drop next flap, then turn into final, keep a 70 kts with yoke, play with power a bit, and when made concentrate on runway, all done slowly and quietly in my mind.

Once the runway is made, I focus coming to my flare, sometimes a bit early, so we float, never late of course, but when on time I just wish he would shut up so I can get a better feel on it.

He tells me 90% of input is me, it's just the freaking reaction upon pull pull pull pull which enerves me. We land, like pulling the reigns on a horse, then disengage flaps which I do slowly, he does quickly, that annoys me, then I concentrate on pulling throttle slowly forward to full, concentrate on keeping runway in line using rudder, and when over 60 kts pull up easy all with tons of runway to spare with no trees or anything since Im in the freaking desert.

I need someone on valium next to me to match my state of my, he speaks too fast for me, I need to be lulled and soothed in flight, everything slow and easy even the speaking part.
yozz, mellow is the way

[rsteele]

I already know the pattern by heart, get 1000 feet agl, paralell runway downwind, enrich mix, engage elec fuel pump, drop flaps in safe range and begin decent, at 45 to runway, go to base leg, drop next flap, then turn into final, keep a 70 kts with yoke, play with power a bit, and when made concentrate on runway, all done slowly and quietly in my mind.

Once the runway is made, I focus coming to my flare, sometimes a bit early, so we float, never late of course, but when on time I just wish he would shut up so I can get a better feel on it.

He tells me 90% of input is me, it's just the freaking reaction upon pull pull pull pull which enerves me. We land, like pulling the reigns on a horse, then disengage flaps which I do slowly, he does quickly, that annoys me, then I concentrate on pulling throttle slowly forward to full, concentrate on keeping runway in line using rudder, and when over 60 kts pull up easy all with tons of runway to spare with no trees or anything since Im in the freaking desert.

I need someone on valium next to me to match my state of my, he speaks too fast for me, I need to be lulled and soothed in flight, everything slow and easy even the speaking part.
yozz, mellow is the way

I'm 54, and just passed my check ride. So I can sympathize a bit. I'm certainly no instructor, just speaking from recent experience.

How often are you flying? If it's less than once a week it's going to be very hard to start feeling comfortable with the plane. If it's more than once a week, you should start seeing some improvement pretty soon, or I'd consider another instructor. Are there any female instructors at your school? Their approach tends to be gentle nudges rather than hard pushes which might work better for ;you.

I think that for a lot of people, learning to land is sort of a eureka moment. You struggle for a long time and then all the sudden it clicks. You have to get the picture stuck in your head and get the confidence to know when it's right.

My first instructor (had three) told me one of the keys to a good landing was trying to hold the nose wheel off as long as possible. This of course is a gross oversimplification, but the concept is very useful. Just keep easing back as the plane gets lower.

Good luck and let us know how you proceed.

Ron

[yozz25]

So far flying 2 times, when I feel like it. Only got about 8-9 hours up, so still a newbie

However, after yesterday's flight, I said the heck with it, going to wait till next week, it wore me out, felt like I ran a marathon. Gotta know when to hold them or fold em.

As for landing, yes, gradually hold the nose back gently and let the plane land itself, with him it seems too abrupt.

I have a feeling it has something to do with his boss telling him about the tires, keep the tires in good shape, so perhaps he is trying for himself the softest landing possible with not much wear on tires, only my guess.

After I get done with a lesson, such as we did steep turns keeping nose up to not lose altitude, steep climbs at normal and slow rate, had to check my "stick and rudder" book to under the whys and whats.

The other school I did a discovery ride with in a DA-20, upon landing instructor said, just flare nose and let the craft land itself, nothing abrupt.

I have a feeling it is about economics here. It makes sense at first for a newbie to flare a bit and let the plane come down gradually. Then one can refine from there.

just my thoughts
yozz

[drseti]

We land, like pulling the reigns on a horse, then disengage flaps which I do slowly, he does quickly, that annoys me, then I concentrate on pulling throttle slowly forward to full, concentrate on keeping runway in line using rudder, and when over 60 kts pull up easy

Yozz, I think I see part of the problem. You've just described a touch and go. This maneuver was designed to cram the maximum number of takeoffs and landings into the minimum time. That's very efficient when you're paying by the hour, but it is not the best learning environment, because everything happens in a rush. Tell your instructor you prefer to do full stop landings and taxi back. This way, you can concentrate on your landing, stop and think about it (maybe even have him or her critique every one while taxiing back slowly), and then take your time setting up for the next takeoff. This creates a more relaxed environment in the cockpit, which I think you will find helpful.

Here's an excerpt from one of my books which you might enjoy (and your instructor should certainly read):

http://drseti.com/prose/winging/touchngo.htm


Safe skies,
Paul

[FastEddieB]

then turn into final, keep a 70 kts with yoke

yozz,

What kind of plane are you flying, and what is Vso?

I only ask because 70k seems kinda fast for final in the typical LSA.

And I was thinking along the same lines as drseti - if the runway is really long, a stop and go might calm things down.

BTW, its not hard landings that wear tires, its fast landings.

[drseti]

70k seems kinda fast for final in the typical LSA.

I have to agree with Eddie. Stall speed clean in any LSA is limited by the FAA to 45 knots. The rule of thumb is to hold 1.3 x Vso on final. Even ignoring the effect of flaps, that suggests approaching at no more than 58.5 knots. (OK, so you can't read your airspeed indicator to that kind of accuracy; try 60 knots and it should work out fine!)

[ibgarrett]

Hopefully this isn't too-far outside the thread context for this posting, but I can empathize with several of you guys with how your instructors have been reacting. I recently took a pre-checkride, and nearly quit because the guy sitting next to me was so dang reactionary to EVERYTHING I did. Sure I made some mistakes, and I'll be the first to admit I need work, but nothing worth shouting over, or having the knee-jerk reactions he did.

My instructor on the other hand has over 40 years of flying experience, so when I've done something out of the ordinary, or not right, he calmly either guide me into what I need to do, or take the controls as necessary - but not without at least communicating it back to me. I somewhat seriously joke that short of inverting the airplane, there isn't anything I could do that would cause him to react the way my pre-checkride guy reacted to every little thing I did.

We also have a CFI around who just recently graduated from UND - and while I haven't flown with him, I suspect that he's pretty easy to work with in the air as well. So age doesn't have anything to do with making a good instuctor. I think some people have the ability to teach and are comfortable enough with flying that they can work far ahead enough of the student to gauge what trouble may be brewing.

On the flip side, I'll never recommend the guy who did my pre-checkride as an instructor, or fly with him again. He's only has his CFI cert for a few years (certainly less than 5 to the best of my knowledge), and his teaching skills were an extreme put off to the entire process. He's a nice guy - just sucks as an instructor.

As far as the landing stuff - it took me a great while to get it. I've struggled with my short-field landing and occasionally don't have a smooth landing. I'm hopefully nearing the end of what perpetually feels like two weeks away from taking my checkride. I'll easily pass 100hrs by then as I'm in the mid-90's now. It's frustrating to me that it's taken this long... nothing like taking 5 times longer than the minimums.. But the great part is all the practice I've gotten at doing things the wrong way.

[yozz25]

Eddie wrote

yozz,

What kind of plane are you flying, and what is Vso?

I only ask because 70k seems kinda fast for final in the typical LSA.

And I was thinking along the same lines as drseti - if the runway is really long, a stop and go might calm things down.

BTW, its not hard landings that wear tires, its fast landings.

I'm practicing in a piper warrior, there are no sports stuff in my neck of the woods, the
Vso is 44

I'm getting experience in warrior in order to just get the feel of flying then will go down to AZ to try out the LSA
yozz