Need training advice

[smokiescfi]

Unfortunately, one hour of 180 degree turn training is unlikely to save the life of a Sport Pilot that is foolish enough to be flying around in what would have to be much lower than legal conditions. Our hope is that a pilot that is flying with minimum training, and probably no recurrent training or proficiency practice, will be able to properly scan, trust, and fly the instruments after "accidently" entering IMC.

Common sense is difficult to teach. Sport Pilots should only be flying during the day, with 3 miles of visibility, and staying well away from clouds. At 120 knots, clouds don't suddenly appear in front of the pilot, even on unstable days, and unstable days are very predictable. The best we can do is teach proper information gathering and weather theory, and encourage good decision making. Weather marginal - stay on the ground. Weather deteriorating - get on the ground. Common sense makes the 180 degree turn unnecessary.

VFR into IFR accidents are the product of a number of bad decisions by the pilot, especially a Sport Pilot. I've been flying for 32 years and I have never accidently flown into a cloud during daylight hours. Flying at night, or in marginal VFR, is a completely different story, and all Private Pilots are allowed to take those risks, and should be trained appropriately. I'm a believer that only instrument rated pilots should be allowed to fly at night, or in marginal VFR, but that is not very popular with the general pilot community.

Sport Pilot is intended to be a simpler, less expensive way of getting into flying. Many Sport Pilots complain about the expense, and complexity of becoming a Private Pilot, hence the lack of instrument training, radio navigation, and night training. If we start adding those items to the Sport Pilot training (a good idea in my opinion), the only benefit left to Sport Pilot is the lack of FAA medical certification.

[frfly172]

With the avionics that are being installed in lsa the sport pilot may have a false feeling of security.Or may take risks they are not trained to.An hour under the hood could be a benefit to the pilot during his first mistake.Just my thoughts

[smokiescfi]

Exactly my point. I agree that an hour is vital. The pilot that is willing to make foolish decisions because of his avionics will most likely not benefit all that much from a single hour of hood work. It is the attitude that needs to be changed. I train instrument pilots daily, and I find that most 200 hour instrument pilots can easily get themselves into an unusual attitude if they do not practice regularly, and recognize their limitations. One hour of instrument training is not enough if we're going to be realistic. We teach weight and balance computations, but that will not stop many pilots from overloading or misloading an airplane, especially LSA.

I'm a believer in Scenario Training. Before starting hood work with my Private Pilot students, I file a flight plan and take them into IMC for about a 1/2 hour. I find that 1/2 hour goes a long way toward teaching a new pilot why clouds and low visibility should be avoided. I follow up with the hood work.

On the flip side, where do we draw the line in training? If we start mandating more training, Sport Pilot will soon become Private Pilot. Remember, Private Pilot may require 40 hours total time, but only 5 more hours of flight training is required. Again, many Sport Pilots claim that Private Pilot training is too demanding. 3 hours of night, 3 hours of hood work, track a VOR. Too demanding?

Did FAA really have in mind aircraft that would fly at 120 knots all day long, with PFD, MFD, TCIS, TAWS, EFIS, Autopilot, XM, Highway in the Sky, etc.?

I fly a Cirrus SR-22 and I have to take 5 hours of recurrent training every year (insurance requirement, not FAA) due to the fact that I have the same avionics that are installed in the 2 Jabirus we have here in Hendersonville. FAA has proposed specific training and endorsements for "Technically Advanced Aircraft". Many modern LSA qualify under FAA's definition of technically advanced.

Interesting side note, I have over 2000 hours in SR-22's, in all kinds of weather. The last CFI that did my annual training had less TOTAL time than I have flown in the last three months.

Again, I agree with teaching the one hour of hood, and I still believe that decision making is more important. Quality of training is the most important. Quality training takes time and money, Sport Pilot was designed to reduce both of those things, and I mean TIME and MONEY, not Quality!

[yozz25]

As an older learner the minimum 20 hours for lsa is equivalent to gettting you "on the road" and in traffic. In my case, and I'm average, the real deal is more like 40 hours.

Personally I think the whole sports thing the way it is being handled via FAA regs is not well thought out. You have a mix of business, politics versus 'reality" wagging the tail of the FAA. Sports pilots should be able to train in regular trainers such as 152's 172s cherokees, da-20 etc. in addition to the sports models out there.

They are safer IMHO. Sports pilots should be given limited licenses in these craft the same as the 2 seaters in the sports fleet. One passenger, no night, good weather, etc. I see no reason why a sports pilot cannot or should not be able to take up a 172 and buzz around on a fair day and have some fun, and land the craft. Each time I go to the airport to go up in sports job, I have to carefully gauge the wind. Too much and I don't know where it's gonna blow me.

Of course those who invested mucho bucks in sports jobs are gonna scream, but to me it's simply common sense and will get a bit more people into aviation who may be squeemish about crawling into smaller plane. Sometimes common sense has to over rule politics and economics.

The remos at my school is ready and waiting whenever one wants it, but people prefer the other heavier craft. As much as I like the remos, I would also like the option of flying on limited conditions a 172.

just my 2 shekels.
yozz

[smokiescfi]

You can fly a C172 - Recreational Pilot, unless you are unable to qualify for a third class medical.

I instruct in an Aeronca Champ. I believe the Aeronca is the perfect example of what FAA had in mind. Low, slow, simple, can't cause much damage. The Champ has no guages, no electrical system, no flaps. I can teach most people to safely fly and land a Champ in 10 hours, that leaves 5 hours to teach how to navigate and prep for a checkride.

I also instruct in an all glass Jabiru. I find the Jabiru to be more of a handful than a C-152. 20 hours is totally unrealistic in a Jabiru.

[3Dreaming]

61.93 (e) (12) Control and maneuvering solely by reference to flight instruments, including straight and level flight, turns, descents, climbs, use of radio aids, and ATC directives. For student pilots seeking a sport pilot certificate, the provisions of this paragraph only apply when receiving training for cross-country flight in an airplane that has a VHgreater than 87 knots CAS.

The sport pilot rules do not apply until you are an applicant for the sport pilot test. Until you apply you are a student pilot and operate under student pilot rules. Tom

[yozz25]

What I am getting at are people who can't pass the medical, may not pass the medical, or may pass the medical who don't want to go through the paperwork and just use the drivers license. Going to the AME and putting anything in stone can just frustrate one, or simply waste precious time.

In todays rules, you can get a sports ticket, with drivers license as medical, whereas I believe you can fly an lsa and go say 120kts, correct me if I'm wrong. Why not simply extend this to the normal trainors we have up there already, such as heavier 152/172.

Older people with expendible income may then throw more bucks the aviation way in this instance knowing they can get a restricted ppl which this is in essence. Saftey wise you are trading off a more stable plane versus a lighter plane. It sort of evens itself out perhaps.

yozz

[smokiescfi]

Good point Tom. As of April 2, the training is required for the x-country endorsement, just like a Private Pilot. No time has ever been been specified, only that the training is received and logged when flying an aircraft with a Vh over 87 knots.

[dstclair]

In todays rules, you can get a sports ticket, with drivers license as medical, whereas I believe you can fly an lsa and go say 120kts, correct me if I'm wrong. Why not simply extend this to the normal trainors we have up there already, such as heavier 152/172.

Older people with expendible income may then throw more bucks the aviation way in this instance knowing they can get a restricted ppl which this is in essence. Saftey wise you are trading off a more stable plane versus a lighter plane. It sort of evens itself out perhaps.

yozz

Yozz -- that's not going happen. There is no one pushing any significant changes to what constitutes an LSA. Heck, I wouldn't mind another 100lbs or so but I'm not going to hold my breath. Also, LSA is becoming a global standard. Several countries appear poised to adopt the ASTM standard and that would pretty much preclude ever including planes like the C-172.

Also, you seem to imply that heavier plane might be safer. Sure, a heavier plane might be easier to land (in the beginning) but the kinetic energy can be substatially more. Depending on the year, a C-172/C-152 lands 5-7 knots faster than a typical LSA and weighs 500-1000lbs more. That's a lot of extra force on impact. I like the idea of less energy.
I'm fortunate to be able to have a 3rd class medical. I just prefer to fly an LSA after years of flying bigger and faster.

[Does anyone remember what started this thread? ]

[yozz25]

I'm in a funk here, the school I like doesn't have the heavier jobs, the school I don't like has the remos.

Have to just suck it up and put them up to speed on what I need to get the ticket, it seems everyone is confused at this school, what a turnoff.

yozz

[JamesMN]

I'm in a funk here, the school I like doesn't have the heavier jobs, the school I don't like has the remos.

Have to just suck it up and put them up to speed on what I need to get the ticket, it seems everyone is confused at this school, what a turnoff.

yozz

I have same problem. Most GA instructors don't have clue what is requried for sport pilot and the frustration comes in when they fail to even try to find out. I'm in the catagory of "I can get a medical but would have to jump through hoops" I'm just not willing to be deferred or denied.

[yozz25]

I hear you Jim, except I have a school that operates this way.

Right now haven't flown in about 2 weeks or so. Was out of town, then came home, virus kind of blahhed me out.

Now the wind is blowing, and I will not go up unless it is 'normal", say below 10 kts. Whether out here is quite strange lately anyhow. I feel once I nail the little stuff that needs to be worked on, then we can up the wind.

I'm kind of in the funk. Thinking that I go back, the CFI is looking at me as hobbs time. So decided when in doubt, do nothing, make no decisions, let the world just hum by. Not much flying volume here anyhow, tells me something about the other students with the weather.

So I devised a strategy. Have to have a sit down with CFI. Let him or owner of school know my goals, my rate of study, and my expectations of them having their act together as far as being up on their craft and specs. They must also be up to date on Regs for sports ticket. That is a must. They should be able to intelligently discuss with me the FAA needs, not make guesses.

Plane must also be in good condition, I suspect the air speed ind is just not where it should be, first plane this happened with, no problem with warrior or remos in az. I also expect a check list to be on hand with a spare and a copy for me. No excuses.

Once that is in stone, we need a goal for prior to flight. A ten minute sitdown where we discuss the flight. I've been thinking real hard and reading about the art of landing, prefer a stablized approached, been practicing that on flight sim, also trying to fix why I tend to prefer to land left of line, working on centering it. I want CFI to tell me the settings before the flight, rpms, when and where.

I practice in my mind the approach and the gentle flare flying the plane keeping it on line and gradually the need and reason to gently hold the stick back and keep it back back back for a slow smooth touch. This is a goal for me.

I feel this disciplined approach on my own, with my own demands will work, since things at this school as I have mentioned are not up to snuff on the remos, they have other fish to fly and remos is not a big seller, if at all on their to do list. They have a very large fleet, the remos is just not doing it so far. But that is not an excuse in my book, nothing wrong with my money, nothing should be wrong with their training and craft.

yozz

[drseti]

I also expect a check list to be on hand with a spare and a copy for me.

Yozz, a reputable flight school should have all its checklists on their website for you to download, so you can print your own personal copy. If your school doesn't do this, a gentle reminder to the owner can pay dividends.

[yozz25]

Doc:

It's not on their website, it should be, it should be in the plane, not somewhere willy nilly. The other down home school had it handy.

I feel like I'm waiting outside on line at studio 54, where even though I pay my money, the doorman gets to pick who comes in. Perhaps I should bring my own glass when I order a drink here.

Yes, I should suggest to the owner, have to book an appointment with him, I'll call his secretary, perhaps they can squeeze me in.

I've been warned about this school before, told it was like an exclusive club by other pilots, but is the only game in town, have to grease the palm of the doorman.

yozz

[ka7eej]

Yozz25,


Try here for a preflight checklist for a remos..
http://skyraideraviation.com/Remos-Pref ... ist-v1.pdf


Brian