Sport Pilot Talk

I'm aware that I'll probably get a wide range of responses to this question, so here it goes...

I recently completed ground school and passed my FAA written exam for Sport Pilot. I took a lesson recently and the CFI was not very aware of the Sport Pilot requirements; he knew of it, but did not know specifically about how many hours were needed (he mentioned that I was the first sport pilot that he has trained). He told me that the training he was going to provide would be identical to Private Pilot, but he said he would check on what the sport pilot training entails. Bear in mind, this school is big and advertises sport pilot training.

He also mentioned that we would be doing some simulator training (using a Cessna 172 instead of the actual 162 that they use for SP) to speed up the learning process. He said it would help learning some topics that would not ordinarily be experienced. I've been doing simulator training at home, using the 162 template, and it helped me today knowing where everything was during actual flight.

My concern is that I'm being run through another ground school when I've already passed and that I perceive that this will get costly. I don't mind paying for training as I see that it will only make me a better pilot in the long run, but I also want to spend my money/time wisely and get the most value. I expressed this to the CFI and he said (again) that he would look into the requirements of the SP training.

You need at least 20 hours of flight in a airplane. Simulator training might be useful, but none of the hours will count toward a Sport Pilot certificate. In addition, if it was me, I would not be interested in learning things that are not part of the Sport Pilot requirements. I'm not sure what that would even be, but just as an example, I would not want to train on IFR approaches while trying to obtain a Sport Pilot certificate. Of course, you do need some instrument training prior to solo cross-country.

If I was you, I would sit down with your CFI and go over the requirements for Sport Pilot and come to an agreement on your training syllabus before going further. I would not agree to a training plan that added a lot of hours and dollars if not needed. Take a copy of the FAR's that specify the training and experience requirements for Sport Pilot. Also, take a copy of the Flight Test Guide, or whatever it's called now.

If he's not willing to train you according to the Sport Pilot requirements and standards, I would find another instructor. After all, he's working for you.

From FAR 61.313:

"If you are applying for a sport pilot certificate with . . . Then you must log at least . . . Which must include at least . . .
(a) Airplane category and single-engine land or sea class privileges, (1) 20 hours of flight time, including at least 15 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor in a single-engine airplane and at least 5 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in § 61.311, (i) 2 hours of cross-country flight training, (ii) 10 takeoffs and landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport, (iii) One solo cross-country flight of at least 75 nautical miles total distance, with a full-stop landing at a minimum of two points and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of at least 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations, and (iv) 2 hours of flight training with an authorized instructor on those areas of operation specified in § 61.311 in preparation for the practical test within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test."

While you will certainly need more hours than the minimum, there is no reason, IMHO, to add stuff that is not pertinent to the Sport Pilot certificate.

Tell your CFI that the Sport Pilot practical exam requirements are contained in a PTS, not an ACS (if he doesn't recognize those acronyms, it's time to find another instructor). The SP Practical Test Standards (which detail specific maneuvers, performance standards to which you must be trained, and specific skills on which you will be examined) may be found on my examiner website:

http://SportPilotExaminer.US

Which also contains a section on Instructor Responsibilities for your CFI to read, and examples of all the logbook endorsements he will be required to give you during your training.

To echo Tim's comment, you shouldn't waste your time and money training for anything that's not in the PTS. Plenty of time to expand your skill set after you're a Sport Pilot.

As his first SP student, you're going to end up exerting some extra effort training your instructor. If you're willing to do that, you will be providing a great service to the aviation community. Every CFI out there has had a first student.

FYI, Gleim publishes a Sport Pilot TrIning Record for about $12 that makes the basis of a good syllabus. If your CFI is willing to follow it, that's a small investment on your part. Or, maybe the flight school has it's own SP syllabus, of which your CFI is not aware. It's hard to imagine a flight school that has an LSA that doesn't also have a SP syllabus filed away somewhere.

About ground school: there's a common misconception that it's only purpose is to prepare you for the knowledge test. This may be the way some ground schools are structured, but it's not how I see it. If ground school is integrated into a flight training curriculum, it prepares you for every flight lesson, and reinforces what you're doing in the aircraft. So, find out if this is what your CFI had in mind. If not (if it's just a test prep course), you are free to politely decline ground school (after all, you're the customer).

Here's a very generic SP curriculum outline I developed about a decade ago. You're welcome to share it with your CFI.

http://avsport.org/docs/LSA_curr.pdf

Thank you Tim and Paul. I got the feeling that the CFI had not been teaching a long time; I had asked him about his general teaching experience and he said that he assisted at another school. I realize that everyone has to start somewhere, and he appears to be a good person/communicator, so I don't mind hanging in there. My issue is the curriculum that the school has in place integrates the simulator with no specific time guidelines. When I asked about cancelling due to poor weather, he told me to show up anyway and we can do simulator work (the simulator is $65/hour in addition to the $65 CFI cost) and I don't get to count that as flight time towards the 20 hour requirement.

The other option is to go to another school in my area in class E airspace that is outfitted with a Cub, get training, pass the FAA practical, and then go back to the city school to get the 61.325 endorsement for controlled airspace. Which leads me to another question, can I get the endorsement using (for instance) a Cessna 150 with a CFI present or does it have to be in a LSA? The school with a Cub also has a 150.

Paul's opinion may be different than mine, but I see no regulatory reason you could not obtain the airspace endorsement in the Cessna 150, provided the instructor is a sub part H instructor with appropriate medical.

Personally I would go for the Cub. It will probably take you less flight time to get your rating because of the simplicity of the airplane. Once you get your rating go back to the other school check out in the 162, get your airspace endorsement, and the greater than 87kt Vh endorsement at the same time.

It is my opinion that all Sport Pilot endorsements have to be in an LSA. The Cub sounds like a great idea, and you can even get your airspace endorsement in it (if you carry a hand-held radio).

What about the transponder requirement?

drseti wrote:It is my opinion that all Sport Pilot endorsements have to be in an LSA. The Cub sounds like a great idea, and you can even get your airspace endorsement in it (if you carry a hand-held radio).

So hypothetical question, you have a private pilot student that buys a Cessna 172 and bases it at a class C airport inside a mode C veil. He hires you to provide him instruction and you do training at the class C with some flight time in the class B airspace. As he is nearing solo he does a consult with an AME only to find out that getting a medical is going to be difficult because of a previous medical condition that has been rectified. He buys a Cub and bases it at an class G airport outside the mode C veil and decides to go sport pilot. In the course of his training in the 172 you have already provided all of the training required by 61.325, couldn't you make the endorsement based on that?

EyeInTheSky wrote:What about the transponder requirement?

You can do your 3 take offs and landings at a class D airport, and simulate training for the other airspace.

EyeInTheSky wrote:What about the transponder requirement?

If it was manufactured without an electrical system, and never had one installed, the Cub is exempt from the transponder requirement. (Of course, you have to coordinate with ATC to fly in B or B airspace).

3Dreaming wrote: In the course of his training in the 172 you have already provided all of the training required by 61.325, couldn't you make the endorsement based on that?

No, because 61.325 starts:

If you hold a sport pilot certificate...

drseti wrote:

3Dreaming wrote: In the course of his training in the 172 you have already provided all of the training required by 61.325, couldn't you make the endorsement based on that?

No, because 61.325 starts:

If you hold a sport pilot certificate...

It says, "you must receive and log ground and flight training.", and "The authorized instructor who provides this training must provide a logbook endorsement that certifies you are proficient in the following aeronautical knowledge areas and areas of operation:". In my scenario the student had received and logged ground and flight training, and the instructor who provided the training made the endorsement.

It doesn't say that the training must be after you hold a sport pilot certificate. It doesn't say the training must be in a light sport aircraft.

Your a member of NAFI correct?

http://chesapeakesportpilot.com/wp-cont ... -Guide.pdf

It suggest that the endorsement can be given to a student pilot, just include the endorsement for 61.325 along with the 61.94 and 61.95 required student pilot endorsements for airspace.