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patmike
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 6:55 pm
Location: New Britain Ct.

hi there

Post by patmike »

hey everybody, i'm pat after racing stock cars for the past 6 years i thought it would be fun to learn to fly. due to my checkered past (20 years ago) it was suggested that instead of pp i should go right into light sport so here i am. i'm open to all information anyone has for me.
anybody else from Ct.
ibgarrett
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Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:53 pm
Location: Westminster, CO

Post by ibgarrett »

Pat - can you define "checkered past". I might be able to help you on that if you have any questions.
Brian Garrett
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patmike
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 6:55 pm
Location: New Britain Ct.

Post by patmike »

i'm a recovering alcoholic (18 years) and i have 3 dui's on my record (20 years ago) probably some other things the faa wouldn't like. i was advised not to apply for a ppl because if i was denied i would be locked out of everything. so here i am
ibgarrett
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:53 pm
Location: Westminster, CO

Post by ibgarrett »

Patmike,

That is a tough one, but based on the length of time between the last occurrence and now you might be in better shape than you thought. I have a conviction in my background as well (non-drug or alcohol related) and when I discussed this with my CFI and the owner of the organization I learned to fly through they pretty much shrugged their shoulders and said that they didn't see how that would effect my ability in to learning to fly. They didn't minimize it, but they also pointed out how they can work with it legally.

I think you'll find as you work your way through the FAR/AIM there will be many questions answered around this that may encourage you to move on to a Private Pilots license. All of the work that you do on a Sport Pilot Certificate counts towards a Private Pilots license, so if mid-way through your training, or even after your training you want to switch and make that jump there's no harm or foul for doing so.

It's been a while since I've had to look that information up in the FAR/AIM, but there may be some CFI's or DPE's watching this list that will know it right off-hand, but I suspect that you'll be o.k.

The absolute most important thing about it is to be completely upfront and honest about it as you have been and you'll do fine throughout the process.
Brian Garrett
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Jon V
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Dallas...

Post by Jon V »

All of the work that you do on a Sport Pilot Certificate counts towards a Private Pilots license
If you use a standard (not sportpilot-only*) CFI.


I'd be really torn on that one....the "all or nothing" jeopardy of taking that medical is a big risk, especially given the "inclusiveness" trend in medicine today. The industry is actively expanding definitions to the point where virtually everyone has a condition of some sort, and many of the conditions they are expanding the definition of are disqualifying.

I passed my last medical without any problem. I have no reason to believe I'll have a problem next time... but I still want to reduce the total number of physicals I take simply because each time you go in you are spinning that roulette wheel.

If I had any real concern, I would do two things: 1) Not take a physical. 2) See what the AOPA can offer with their special issuance assistance stuff.


*Sportpilot only meaning subpart K or whatever it is.
ibgarrett
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:53 pm
Location: Westminster, CO

Post by ibgarrett »

Yeah - I glossed over that part (a regular CFI vs. a SP CFI) partly because I have yet to meet a Sport-Pilot only CFI. It doesn't mean it can't and won't happen, but what are the odds? (and yes - I admit I'm basing that on only the CFI's I know). :D

As for the medical. Part of the reason I went SP over PP was because I was taking an anti-depressant that at the time was prohibited, but now it is on the approved list. I got off of it so that I could go the PP route, so much for that part. Then I was worried that I was going to be overweight, and then I went to a local AOPA event. Even if I were to assume that HALF the room wasn't currently flying, I'm still in better shape than most of the folks there - and have of course lost the weight I needed to.

Certainly a precautionary approach to getting the medical is prudent. I haven't a clue of how some of the PP, CP's and CFI's that I know pass their medical. But I do know my fair share of folks who are going the LSA route just so they don't have to worry about taking their medical ever again.
Brian Garrett
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Jon V
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Dallas...

Post by Jon V »

:)

My reasoning for SP over PP right now is pretty simple, and honestly the medical is not a deciding factor for me, but I can see how it would be.

In my case, the thought pattern goes like this:

1) My desired use is entirely recreational. I'm not going to be flying for business or even for personal travel. No conflicts there.

2) Many of the planes I'm most interested in are light sports anyway. This is a tug-o-war of course and who doesn't like the idea of fast, but I could do 80+% of the flying I want to do with a part 103 ultralight, and be past 90% with a CH750. I'd like to try gliders too of course....

3) The passenger limitation doesn't bother me. I didn't carry any passengers on a motorcycle until I'd ridden for a couple of years. I don't see carrying many passengers in a plane either. I don't think I will want to, as a < 50 hour pilot, put many eggs in my basket.

4) In two years from SP checkride I'll be due for a flight review anyway... if I instead bump to PP that will reset the clock for me. On top of that, if I get my medical the day before my checkride, I'll be 38 and won't have to have another medical until I'm 43. If, on the other hand, I got a 3rd class today I'd have to renew it at 41 AND 43. Not a huge deal, but a waste of time and a risk for no gain.

5) The reaction to the SP/LSA rules just bugs me. To quote a post from another forum:
Here is a summation of everything I know about sport pilot and recreational pilot's certificates...

I won't sign a logbook of any of them.

That was my answer for my CFI ride when the DPE asked me about it... she laughed and said "Great answer!"
I want to do it just because of BS like that.
Jack Tyler
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Location: Prescott AZ
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Post by Jack Tyler »

Patmike, here are a couple of thoughts I'd suggest you mull over...

If you are happy to be exclusively restricted to SP rules & limitations - and you are clear on what the former lacks that a PPL allows - then that's great and good luck on Lesson #1. But be sure you understand the choice you are making.

If you have no qualms about flying only in an LSA a/c, then once again just keep going on the SP curriculum. But in addition to the performance limitations, there are some fit issues that affect some folks (who are taller or larger than average). If starting out, I'd make a point of trying to find a mix of LSA a/c, high- and low-wing, to sit in (doors closed, canopy down respectively) so that I'd know the LSA choices included some a/c I would want to fly.

If for any reason you aren't certain that being restricted to SP privileges and/or LSA a/c is sufficient, then in your shoes I'd join AOPA and consider using the Legal Advisory Service. I find AOPA to be a gateway to enough services and price-competitive benefits that, for me, it easily justifies the $50/year. The Legal Services group are technical counselors that are very familiar with how the FAA weighs issues like yours, and their only motivation is to tell you what is likely. If the DUI's and long-past alcoholism end up being viewed as medical issues, AOPA also offers a very inexpensive, similar 'coaching' service for medical-related issues, helping the member to anticipate how the AME is going to evaluate you *before* you go to the AME.

You can scout out more about their benefits at aopa.org. I'm a very satisfied user of the Legal Services group, FWIW.
Jack
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org
patmike
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 6:55 pm
Location: New Britain Ct.

Post by patmike »

apparently the rule recently changed regarding class 3 medical. now you must have a lily white background and be as healthy as an Olympic athlete.
here is a thread from another site i got this info from
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/sh ... hp?t=41787
Jon V
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Dallas...

Post by Jon V »

Dunno about the athlete part, but the idea that people can reform, pay their debt to society, etc is certainly gone from the US culture today. Screw up one time and a whole bunch of doors close. It's a bummer man.

Of course the irony is that because all those doors close so quickly, there is less incentive for an offender to avoid repeat offense - after all, you've already taken the ability to work anywhere good, maybe live with their family, do all sorts of other things... at some point there's nothing else you can take from a person, and all our controls just disappear.

Oh well.

Patmike... I remember seeing your thread on pilotsofamerica now. Sucked then, sucks now. I have nothing good to tell you except that the LSA plane I'm flying now is as much if not more fun than the two Part23 types I've flown. Main downside is the tighter wind limits, but landing a 172 in > 25kt winds is probably not the best use of your training dollar as a low time student either.
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drseti
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Post by drseti »

patmike wrote:i'm a recovering alcoholic (18 years)
Congratulations on your recovery, my friend -- keep working your program, one day at a time. Go fly LSA; I fully agree with your choice to keep FAA medical out of the loop. I'm sure you'll have much more fun and much less stress.

Welcome to the forum. Any questions, we're here for you.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
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patmike
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 6:55 pm
Location: New Britain Ct.

Post by patmike »

the good is never remembered and the bad is never forgotten.
the one problem with lsa is that it being a new class or category there are not many places to rent one, so one could go through the whole process and have a nice shiny license and nothing to do with it. so if you don't have $100k to throw down on a plane your not flying.
Jack Tyler
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Post by Jack Tyler »

Patmike:

Not to beat a dead horse, but the quality of the info which is available via AOPA is far different than the content of the forum thread you offered or one AME's opinion.

Again, if happy with LSA a/c and the SP privileges, then have at it. Your next step is to choose an instructor wisely and then enjoy yourself. OTOH the limited availability of LSA a/c is an excellent example of why the SP ticket just can't be the best choice for all aspiring pilots everywhere, at least for now, and the ongoing flat sales numbers don't suggest this will change quickly.

You are about to begin spending a significant amount of money (which of course never ends while remaining in aviation <s>) and dedicate a meaningful chunk of your personal time & effort to build your knowledge base and skills (which, come to think of it, also never ends!). In your shoes, I'd want a more definitive understanding of how the FAA currently handles such issues (e.g. if 'proof of sobriety' is a requirement, what form does it normally take on the application?) and I'd want it from folks who deal with these kinds of issues daily.

Regardless, congrats on putting those early years behind you and best of luck on your new avocation.
Jack
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org
Jon V
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Dallas...

Post by Jon V »

The rental concern is valid and is in a way worse than you imagine.

With SP, even if LSA were available in the same quantities as part 23, you have the problem that there are a lot of types and the SP ticket requires a type endorsement. If you learn in a Remos, take a vacation somewhere and find that they have a Tecnam for rent, before you can fly it solo a CFI has to endorse your logbook...which may mean 1 hour dual, or 5, it just depends on the CFI. CFIs won't casually endorse because it puts their number in your logboook for the FAA to find when you crash.

On the other hand, that's mostly an issue if you want to rent a plane while on vacation. In that case there is always the option of renting a 172 with instructor...yeah, it bumps the price by $50/hr, and you have a stranger flying with you, but you are in the air...and the dual time goes in your logbook to apply towards your PP if you go that way.
Jack Tyler
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Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:49 pm
Location: Prescott AZ
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Post by Jack Tyler »

Jon brings up a pretty relevant scenario, Patmike...so let's walk down that path a bit further.

You find an FBO or flight school (one may be part of the other) that has an LSA available for SP students, and to rent by the hour. (Visit Paul's website to see just such an example, altho' far better documented than most SP/LSA training operations I've seen - http://avsport.org/menu.htm). You work thru the curriculum, take your check ride and now it's time to enjoy your license. The FBO/flight school may own several a/c...but they may only own one LSA - the one you trained in. And if so, that a/c's availability is a function of their training sked since using it for flight training is more lucrative and builds the base of SP pilots the FBO/flight school needs. So how available will it be for you - e.g. when you want to fly 100 miles to visit a buddy and take him for a spin with your new license, then return the next day?

Now add in your location: do you live in a seasonal climate? Most of the USA fits into that category, and so there will be busy periods when students want to learn and renters want to rent, as well as lean times when it's too cold and stormy (or here in Florida, too hot and stormy) to appeal to the same degree. The point of course is that availability might be better when you are less inclined to fly and poor when you are moreso.

Finally, step back and look at the apron in front of that FBO/flight school. With a PPL (and the necessary endorsement, a one-time event if you stay current), you can have your pick of the planes that are available. For a given flight, some might be a better fit than others...and some will be more expensive to rent than others, too. But you might find you at least have choices, while none are available if that single LSA a/c is the only one you can fly.

If you look at Paul's Annual Report, you'll notice he's working off a business model that has him adding a 2nd LSA sooner rather than later, and the above scenario helps to explain why. In fact, it especially helps Paul as he's his own 'preferred' mechanic (altho' he does have an AP available, as well). Tough to turn a wrench on the same plane he's instructing in, at the same time.

We really are on the front end of this new slice of the GA industry and the normally slow spin-up in an installed base for any new industry - in our case, of SP pilots, SP CFI's and LSA a/c - has been especially hindered by the GFC and the oh-so slow recovery that we (and many other nations) continue to experience. It will definitely look different 10 years from now...but of course, you want to begin flying sooner rather than later.

Lots to think about...
Jack
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org
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