New Guy

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okent
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Re: New Guy

Post by okent »

3Dreaming wrote:Find and talk to the guys at Airtime Aviation there at RSV.
I did go by there last week and sit in one of their planes. Sadly all are spoken for except for the one on floats.
Was going to to up in a flight but the battery was DOA due to being left on overnight.
Maybe this week I can get up in one.
The fact that they are the largest Flight Design dealer in the country and can get parts basically overnight is huge.
They are overbudget for me, looking for something under 100K, but they look awesome.
okent
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Re: New Guy

Post by okent »

FastEddie
That is one nice plane.
I keep looking at the Sky Arrow as well.
Jack Tyler
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Re: Part 23 Aircraft

Post by Jack Tyler »

Tom, two add'l thoughts for you:

-- You have to commit to a genuine dedicated search before you can conclude that any given type/brand/model isn't going to be acceptable to you and/or your wife. For the sake of discussing this a bit, I just grabbed the first Grumman Tiger listing that popped up in Barnstormers to illustrate: http://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php?mode=search I really don't mean to 'push' a Tiger exclusively tho' it does come close to matching your long-term goals. My point is that you need to investigate the brand & model in depth before either of you can conclude it 'won't work' or 'isn't modern enough'. E.g. this listing has just been worked over by Fletchair, which means people who know Grummans intimately have done the work, have (or have access to) all the new/refurb'd parts needed, and who can provide whatever transition training you would need. (FYI the owners' association - http://www.aya.org/index.php - operates a Pilot Familiarization Program all around the country). Does it look new enough? Well, what does 'looking new' get you? Is it clean, do its logs reflect the right kind of (qualified) care it should have received? If some aspect of it lacks sufficient 'newness' (typically, this means the paint, the interior, the panel or the windshield glass), what's the cost of improving that aspect?

Moreover, one of the key concerns most spouses have about any airplane choice is safety. 'Will it be safe to fly? Would I want my kids flown in it?' Accident stats for the AA-5X series are quite good by comparison with other simple Part 23 a/c (see e.g. the Aviation Consumer reviews). No one likes to think about their plane facing an off-airport 'landing', but the reality is that survivability of the airframe plays a big role in passenger survivability. You only have to see a few pics of conventional 'aluminum skin on aluminum frame' a/c (Cessna, Piper, metal LSA's, etc.) after a crash to understand how poorly that construction method performs in even controlled off-airport landings in rough terrain. Basically, the airframe is shredded apart. The kind of monocoque composite construction used in LSA's is no better, perhaps worse. A Grumman's honeycomb/composite/aluminum skin structure is quite different with the portion of the airframe surrounding the cockpit far safer in that sense. As are it's wing spars. There has not yet been a recorded in-flight spar failure of a AA-5X Grumman. My point is that it takes some time to peel the onion and fully appreciate ALL of the factors that make an a/c safe...or at a more general level, 'acceptable' or even desirable. Including your wife in this process is perhaps the single best way to insure that she'll end up being a full partner in your flying. It requires her to invest her time in something that might not initially interest her, but it surely will increase her comfort as well as her enjoyment in whatever you end up buying and making a part of your lifestyle.

-- In my limited experience, Eddie and his beautiful spouse are more the exception than the rule. Tandem seating, as he mentions, is the less popular choice (a relevant fact when you must later think of resale), but beyond that most tandem seat configurations are flown by guys who are absent their spouses/partners. There would be even fewer tanden seat airframes if it only couples were buying them. (E.g. I know lots of folks in the RAF who fly tandem a/c like RV's and Husky's. Only one routinely enjoys his wife's company). Especially when the other person is not a pilot, it is interesting and educational for the passenger to be seated next to the pilot and able to observe all that's going on, rather than buried behind him/her. Side by side seating has many other benefits, from having a helper when one is needed (fetch the sandwich) to better enabling some Pinch Hitter training, to the full sense of inclusion in the experience. None of the above, of course, is as important to you as your statement "My wife wants side by side seating..."

On another note, I apologize to the group...as Paul is correct. I obviously got hyperventilated when combining thoughts of cost effectiveness with flying. I'll try to be more practical in the future. <g>
Jack
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org
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David
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Re: New Guy

Post by David »

Welcome aboard the forum. Enjoy the training :)
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dstclair
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Re: New Guy

Post by dstclair »

okent wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:Find and talk to the guys at Airtime Aviation there at RSV.
I did go by there last week and sit in one of their planes. Sadly all are spoken for except for the one on floats.
Was going to to up in a flight but the battery was DOA due to being left on overnight.
Maybe this week I can get up in one.
The fact that they are the largest Flight Design dealer in the country and can get parts basically overnight is huge.
They are overbudget for me, looking for something under 100K, but they look awesome.
Fairly decent used LSA market now with plenty of low-hour planes well under $100K. There are some CTs below $80K. Found an Allegro for $48K.

Try barnstormer.com and controller.com.
dave
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FastEddieB
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Re: Part 23 Aircraft

Post by FastEddieB »

Jack Tyler wrote:Especially when the other person is not a pilot, it is interesting and educational for the passenger to be seated next to the pilot and able to observe all that's going on, rather than buried behind him/her. Side by side seating has many other benefits, from having a helper when one is needed (fetch the sandwich)...
FWIW, in the Sky Arrow they put the passenger seat higher than the pilot's, making it pretty easy to see the panel and what's going on - so from experience the passenger does not feel "buried". Admittedly, the back of a Cub or a Citabria is a bit cave-like by comparison.

In addition, wifey-poo is always at the ready with Altoids, FireBalls, PopTarts, water, or whatever, just handed over my left shoulder when requested.

Understand, none of this is an argument that tandem is better for the passenger - but it is doable.
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
CFI, CFII, CFIME
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drseti
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Re: New Guy

Post by drseti »

Tom, I have very little Grumman Tiger time, but have flown its cousins, the Trainer, Yankee, Traveler, and Cheetah, a bit. I have to agree with Jack that it seems a good match to your mission. It may take you a while to get used to the castering nosewheel and differential brake steering, but that's becoming common in the LSA universe now, and is used on high-end planes like the Cirrus. And I too like the honeycomb construction (one of the main reasons why I bought my old 1971 Beechcraft, which I flew for 30 years).

Good luck with your search. Don't be in a hurry. :wink:
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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drseti
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Re: Part 23 Aircraft

Post by drseti »

FastEddieB wrote:in the Sky Arrow they put the passenger seat higher than the pilot's, making it pretty easy to see the panel and what's going on
I agree with Eddie, who very kindly let me fly his Sky Arrow from the rear seat recently. Excellent visibility of the whole panel. I could easily see over Eddie's shoulder (and I'm short).
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
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okent
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Re: New Guy

Post by okent »

The Diamond has the free castor nose wheel with steering done by brakes, I've got that down.
I think the FD guys at KRVS actually have a Grumman in their hanger!
I have spend my free time today reading and searching on the Grumman and from my memory the sliding canopy plane I saw last week may be one.
I'll give them a call tomorrow and see if they have the battery issue fixed and also ask about the plane.
The more I read the more it looks like the Grumman might be a good fit.
Thanks again for all the good info, I really appreciate it.

Tom
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Re: New Guy

Post by Jack Tyler »

Again, I don't mean to be pushing Grummans exclusively, Tom. You will find other Part 23 a/c worth considering...and then there's always the Experimental market. It's just that I'm fairly familiar with them, having owned a Traveler and later a Tiger.

Two key resources to consider - once your checkride is behind you and it seems time to do some serious shopping:
1. The owners' group, American Yankee Association. Among other functions, it's been compiling an extensive, decades long compendium of info on AA-5X issues, fixes and resources. Paying for a one-year membership ($50 as I recall) gives you access to years of their bi-monthly (now digital) newsletter - The Star - very useful reading. They are at aya.org.

2. 'The' on-line forum for Grumman owners is the Grumman Gang, which generates email Q&A messages at least daily. All the key players participate (dealers from the 70's who are still operating Grumman-centric businesses today) and are very generous with their time. The archive of these messages, which is searchable, is quite valuable.

The Grumman Gang detail:
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mai ... umman-gang
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
[email protected]
You can reach the person managing the list at
[email protected]

Now that we've reached summer weather, one of the most endearing features of any Grumman save the (twin) Cougar is its sliding canopy. It's even approved to fly with it cracked open e.g. when doing basic airwork. Something you might appreciate in OK and we surely do in FL.
Jack
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org
okent
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Re: New Guy

Post by okent »

I sent Tom Gutmann a message today to see if the other plane in their hangar is a Grumman.
The ability to open the canopy is a huge plus for me as the Diamond is definitely HOT this time of the year.
Thanks again Jack for the information, it has been very helpful. The Grumman is definitely on my list now.

Edited to add that Tom Gutmann does have a Grumman Tiger, but it's not for sale :-(
Should have the CTLS ready for a flight maybe next week.
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