New Guy

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okent
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New Guy

Post by okent »

Finishing up my private pilot training, have about 3 hours in a diamond da20 and 5 in a 172(had to switch to the 172 as the diamond is down for a new engine)
Starting to look for a first plane and though this would be a good place to start.
Flying out of KRVS in Tulsa.
Eventually want something I can take 3-4 people about 400 miles with speeds about 135 knots but thought it would be good
to get a 2 seater to cut my teeth on and build up some hours.
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drseti
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Re: New Guy

Post by drseti »

Welcome aboard, and best of luck in finishing up your private. If you're considering getting a 2-seater (possibly an LSA?) as your first plane, you might want to think about getting it sooner rather than later, and finishing up your rating in it. This will give you the advantage of combining your transition training (always a good idea when you're switching to a different type of plane) with the hours required for your rating, which can save you some money in the long run. Plus, you will get to see how much fun these little planes can be!

Safe skies,
Paul
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
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Jack Tyler
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Re: New Guy

Post by Jack Tyler »

Welcome aboard and - again - congrats on closing in on your license to learn. (Want to share a first name...?) And given your eventual aircraft plans, it's great to see how suitable your training base has been for those plans. Operating from a towered airport, adjacent to a Class C, having seen seasonal weather changes and with a lot of other (different) airports nearby: all of that is excellent prep for distance flying.

Here are a couple of thoughts for you to mull re: 'that first plane':
-- Owning is a very different experience than flying, so drawing on ownership-related resources can be very helpful. AOPA is one helpful resource and their Ownership Cost Calculator is extremely useful to the non-owner as you look at various a/c choices and want to project their ownership costs. You'll find that (and other helpful info) here: http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Air ... rship.aspx In addition, the FAA offers free pubs the book retailers charge for, and I think you would benefit by downloading the .pdf version of Plane Sense, found here: http://www.everyspec.com/FAA/FAA-Spec/F ... 19A_13561/

-- Having a PPL, your choices of an 'interim a/c' are extremely broad and ['sweeping generalization' alert...] I doubt you'll find a LSA a/c choice to make the most sense. Most of those a/c are newer and therefore priced higher than many Part 23 a/c, yet don't necessarily have comparable or better performance capabilities (payload, range, weather-related capabilities) than older Part 23 a/c like that 172 you are flying. Moreover, your eventual goal ("...3-4 people about 400 miles with speeds about 135 knots.") suggests you really should already be thinking about getting an instrument rating. There's many a simple (fixed gear, fixed pitch, 2 or 4-place) a/c that will have the basic avionics necessary for IFR training; I think it would be a mistake to pick a 'time builder' that was not capable of being IFR certified and therefore didn't allow you that training option once you get past the $100 hamburger runs with friends.

-- It's challenging for a pilot relatively new to GA to make a completely satisfying a/c choice as his/her first purchase. It's doubly challenging to buy a plane - with the intent of selling it and buying yet another plane - without it being more costly than buying the '2nd plane 1st'. OTOH if you really think you will need (or want) to flight plan for 135 kts, then you're shooting relatively high (in acquisition cost, operating cost and complexity). Consequently, that may be more plane than you want to start with, financially or operationally. An example: I fly a 'simple' a/c that's probably as fast as 99% of all Part 23 fixed gear, fixed pitch models (a Grumman Tiger) and I flight plan for 125 kts, altho' some owners claim 130 kts is possible. It's a pretty big leap (and requires a complex rating) to get faster than that, so give some careful thought to just how important that last 10 kts will be. Gut hunch on my part: You can find a non-complex a/c as your 'time builder' and instrument platform that will end up meeting your long term needs, and that one purchase will be more affordable in the long term while all your training and time building will be in the same airframe as your eventual distance flying.

But meanwhile... Stay focused, good luck on a steady spell of acceptable weather, and best of luck on getting the ticket.
Jack
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org
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FastEddieB
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Re: New Guy

Post by FastEddieB »

Funny...

...before I read all the way down to "Grumman Tiger", I was thinking Grumman Tiger - a really great choice if parts availability is still decent.

BTW, I recall filing for, and getting, 132 kts on 10 gph in mine, which I sold in 2003 to get my Cirrus, which I sold in 2006 to get my Sky Arrow.
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drseti
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Re: New Guy

Post by drseti »

FastEddieB wrote:my Cirrus, which I sold in 2006 to get my Sky Arrow.
A definite step up, Eddie, IMHO. :wink:
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
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AvSport LLC, KLHV
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okent
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Re: New Guy

Post by okent »

Thanks for the warm welcome! My name is Tom.
I noticed a typo in my initial post. I have 30 hours in the diamond.
I really like that plane but I am planning on continuing my training to get instrument rated.
Most likely won't ever use it but just see it as smart.
I am apprehensive about flying a more complex plane as I know that most of what I will be doing is joy flying around Oklahoma.
I have 2 brothers up north, one in Illinois and one in Fargo ND, and have dreams of flying up to see them with maybe one fuel stop on the way.
My thinking was to get a two seater to fly for fun and could fly in and out of grass strips locally. No plan to sell it.
Have two adult kids and one son left at home and it would be nice to have an option for them to fly if any get the bug.
After a year or so then get something that will haul 3-4 people.
The logic of getting the bigger plane is sound.
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FastEddieB
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Re: New Guy

Post by FastEddieB »

My thinking was to get a two seater to fly for fun and could fly in and out of grass strips locally. No plan to sell it.


Citabria.
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
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okent
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Re: New Guy

Post by okent »

That is exactly what my flight instructor says!
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drseti
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Re: New Guy

Post by drseti »

The Citabria is great (I've flown them), but if we're dreaming here, why not go for that new Decathlon Xtreme? I talked to Greg Koontz about it last month - seems like an ideal step up from the plain vanilla Citabria.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
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Jack Tyler
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Re: New Guy

Post by Jack Tyler »

Tom:

"I really like that plane but I am planning on continuing my training to get instrument rated.
Most likely won't ever use it but just see it as smart."

On the contrary, you'll use some of what you learn from an Instrument rating - assuming you stay current - on every flight. Among other things, you have a much clearer picture of the system in which you are flying, even if it's a fun hop. For your airspace, that will be quite important at times. You'll know how precisely you can fly the a/c from takeoff to landing and that will affect how you fly by shaping your expectations of yourself. A third benefit is that every one of your passengers will be a bit safer on their flights.

"I am apprehensive about flying a more complex plane as I know that most of what I will be doing is joy flying around Oklahoma. I have 2 brothers up north, one in Illinois and one in Fargo ND, and have dreams of flying up to see them with maybe one fuel stop on the way."

(Went thru Fargo last week. Gosh, the Midwest is beautiful this early summer, due to all the late spring rains). You'll see a lot of posts here that center on the theme 'Define the mission(s), then pick the plane'. Your comments reflect a fairly common set of flying goals, at least initially. Mostly local/weekend/'fun' flights but with longer flights over multiple days a few times a year. What may be missing right now, since you haven't had access to your own a/c, is a third category of flying that allows you to use the utility of your a/c when you'd otherwise drive or fly commercially. (Examples? As you can see below, I'm a volunteer with the RAF and have several meetings planned for later this month. I could do them by car...but flying to the destinations is much, much easier. Another: We have very good friends who live 2+ hrs away. We could stay connected by car...but a flight down by a/c is far more enjoyable and so the visits are more frequent.) The more ways you end up using your a/c, the more utilitarian it becomes with an IR.

Buying and flying a plane for a year and then trading up, while certainly an option, doesn't sound very cost effective to me. No matter how nifty the a/c might be.
Last edited by Jack Tyler on Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jack
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drseti
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Re: New Guy

Post by drseti »

Jack Tyler wrote: Buying and flying a plane for a year and then trading up, while certainly an option, doesn't sound very cost effective to me. No matter how nifty the a/c might be.
Jack, I can't believe you used "plane" and "cost effective" in the same sentence! :wink:
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
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FastEddieB
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Re: New Guy

Post by FastEddieB »

I've owned two Citabrias - never even flown a Decathalon, to my recollection.

The Citabria is generally simpler - the Decathalon may have inverted fuel and oil systems and a constant-speed prop that the Citabria probably would not have, for instance.

I think the main difference is airfoil shape. The Citabria has a standard airfoil (flat on the bottom, curved on the top), while the Decathalon has a symmetrical airfoil (curved the same top and bottom).

That means the Decathalon flies as well upside down as it does right side up, but does not fly right side up as efficiently as a Citabria. The Decathalon may also have "spades", which lighten up the ailerons.

Unless aerobatics were a priority, my Bellanca/Champion order of preference would be...

1) Citabria (there are at least 4 models, I owned a 7ECA (115hp no flaps) and a 7GCBC (150hp w/flaps), the others are the 7GCAA (150hp no flaps) and the 7KCAB (150hp -I think and inverted systems with the Citabria airfoil))

2) Scout

3) Decathalon

4) Champ

I think they can all be compared on the American Champion site, but some models may no longer be available.
Last edited by FastEddieB on Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fast Eddie B.
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okent
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Re: New Guy

Post by okent »

Jack, I agree with everything you have said.
Spending 100K on an airplane for some reason makes me think it should look fairly new.
For my particular mission, it seems like a 182 or the Grumman Tiger would suit me the best but the one's I have seen in my price range(only looked at the 182) look like they are about ready for the scrap heap. Now I know they are fine machines that would serve me well but I just don't think it will inspire confidence with my wife. :D
The LSA aircraft look good and seem to fit my profile the best but don't have a 3rd seat.
My wife wants side by side seating so that kind of nixes the Citabria.
I don't have any particular desire to build an airplane though there are a bunch of plans out there that would fit me pretty good.
Thanks everyone for the information. It is very helpful.
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Re: New Guy

Post by 3Dreaming »

Find and talk to the guys at Airtime Aviation there at RSV.
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FastEddieB
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Re: New Guy

Post by FastEddieB »

okent wrote: My wife wants side by side seating so that kind of nixes the Citabria.
Understood.

There are certainly some advantages to side-by-side, and the market reflects that.

I just find something inherently "right" about sitting on the centerline of the plane.

I'm SO lucky that neither Karen nor my Young Eagle victims seem to mind!

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Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
CFI, CFII, CFIME
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