Hang gliders to sailboats and back

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deckofficer
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Hang gliders to sailboats and back

Post by deckofficer »

Hi all,

I'm happy to be a new member of this forum. So much has changed since my absence in light aviation. In 1980 I was flying hang gliders and out of my garage was the Seagull dealer for Sacramento. Then I decided on a vertical "wing" and was off sailboat cruising in my Cal 40. Returned to college in my mid 40's at California Maritime Academy and traded in sailboats for large ships. This career change was to see me through to retirement so that I could have a designer like Chris White build my next cruising sailboat. As most know, the best laid plans tend to get derailed by reality, and 3 years ago I retired from merchant shipping to care for my dad. He is 94 now and doing good, but I have had to scale back my dreams of sailing the world on my schedule (not that of the shipping company) because I expect pop to go to at least 100, making me in my late 60's before getting to sail in some 20 year old used boat instead of the new one I dreamed of when entering CMA. This got me to thinking, at that age am I still going to have the energy to solo sail, provision and lug my food stores to the boat, and reef in the middle of the night in a squall?

Then it hit me, return to aviation, go the Sport Pilot route where a medical isn't needed, and choose a LSA that also feeds my maritime bend. I'm leaning towards two at this time, the Searey for longer flights and water landings, and for quick and cheap air fixes a North Wing Solairus soaring trike. I figure with TBO and fuel the Searey will run about $35~$40 per hour and the trike with its soaring ability less than $5 per hour.

I used to live at Cameron Air Park and would return to the old neighborhood but have been priced out. I have found some out of state air parks that are in my retirement budget, but any hints on others I'm all ears. I want to retire to an air park and can be quite happy with a modest home and hangar.

I go full out on the intro in hopes of finding others with similar interests.

This a recent picture of the old neighborhood. Notice my leather cap and goggles on the rear deck of the Track-T.
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And here is a dusty old picture from 1980 or so.
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Bob
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Re: Hang gliders to sailboats and back

Post by drseti »

Welcome aboard, Bob (and welcome back to aviation). The SeaRey is a great choice for someone with your background and interests. I think your estimate of operating costs is optimistic, unless you fly one helluva lot of hours per year (to better amortize the not inconsiderable fixed expenses). But even at twice your figure, it beats renting!

I like that photo. Kind of everybody's idea of good toys...
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Re: Hang gliders to sailboats and back

Post by deckofficer »

Professor,

Thanks for the reply. I hope I wasn't optimistic on the hourly costs. If my home is in a air park, then the hangar is part of residential expenses. Insurance on any plane that can land on water is close to 1/4 of the plane's value per year, so will only carry liability which is always reasonable in the premiums.

As to the soaring trike, the 21 hp Honda based 4 stroke single is a cheap overhaul and I expect at least a 3 to 1 ratio of soaring time vs power time.
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Re: Hang gliders to sailboats and back

Post by drseti »

deckofficer wrote:will only carry liability which is always reasonable in the premiums.
That may mke your estimate feasible, Bob. Hull insurance is a major cost driver. Don't overlook service bulletins and other maintenance costs (which you can minimize if you build the SeaRey yourself, meet the 51% rule, and thus get your repairman's certificate). Consider Rainbow Aviation in Corning CA for any maintenance training you may require - I've taken three of their courses, and give them my highest endorsement.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: Hang gliders to sailboats and back

Post by deckofficer »

drseti wrote:
deckofficer wrote:will only carry liability which is always reasonable in the premiums.
That may mke your estimate feasible, Bob. Hull insurance is a major cost driver. Don't overlook service bulletins and other maintenance costs (which you can minimize if you build the SeaRey yourself, meet the 51% rule, and thus get your repairman's certificate). Consider Rainbow Aviation in Corning CA for any maintenance training you may require - I've taken three of their courses, and give them my highest endorsement.
Thanks for the reference. I see from your website your in the biz. Has the growth of LSA been to your expectations? The Searey website looks like it is still being worked on. I'm hoping they offer training on aircraft purchased from them. I would assume if your taking flight instruction in your own plane the cost would be for the CFI and program.
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Re: Hang gliders to sailboats and back

Post by Jack Tyler »

Welcome aboard, Bob. As a fellow ex-sailor (or is that just 'sailor without a boat'), my wife and I also just recently rejoined aviation after selling WHOOSH in Brisbane, Australia. It's hard to say one of those two activities is better than the other, but they both surely offer much fulfillment.

About air parks: We have many of those in Florida and, if I was shopping for one, one approach I would use is to start with the state aviation directories for the states in which I would consider living. States with Aviation Depts. (usually under the state's Dept. of Transportation) often publish these, and they not only provide lists of private & public 'airports' (meaning 'airstrips' in the case of private land owners) but also the contact info for the air parks and airstrips. That would give me a shopping list, after which I could use Skyvector.com or my own navigation software to view each air park's location and decide if I want to investigate them further. For those with whom I would want to follow up, I'd use the contact info.

To illustrate this, here is the link to the .pdf version of Florida's airport directory:
http://www.florida-aviation-database.co ... d6889ab910
State-published directories IME are offered and posted at no charge.

IME air parks are often notoriously known - even more than Condominium Associations - for their petty squabbles and competing factions wrestling for power & control. (My hunch is that to some extent this is what happens when you put people together who have enjoyed financial success, often while in positions where they enjoyed much control, and who are somewhat independent & self-sufficient by nature, which helped them get involved in aviation in the first place). So...I would be very wary of committing (financially & personally) to any air park setting until after I'd befriended multiple residents, visited many times, and had a solid 'feel' for the place.

To address one of your Q's, I think it's generally agreed that - initially, at least - the impact of the Sport Pilot license and also impact of the LSA class of a/c on GA has been underwhelming. This is due to a number of factors, including the initial hype that this would be GA's immediate salvation, the flooded marketplace of LSA models (~130 or so, to date) and the consequent inability of many small mfgrs. with slivers of marketshare to sustain them, the terrible timing of the LSA's introduction given the Great Recession, and the absence of SP training and LSA rental a/c in large portions of our country (which has been commented on here many times). You are quite fortunate in being able to own the a/c you hope to fly but, for most folks interested in SP flying, they can only rent. If there's only one (or no) rental a/c within a reasonable driving range, it really takes the wind out of one's sails (I couldn't resist...). In the first 9 years the SPL existed, only ~4,000 SPL licenses were issued, if memory serves, reflecting the difficulty the whole industry has had in bootstrapping itself to success. It's helped that some PPL holders moved to Sport Aviation during that time as well, but that trend has now slowed.

Glad to have you aboard. Please keep us posted on your progress.
Jack
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Re: Hang gliders to sailboats and back

Post by deckofficer »

Jack,

Thanks for the reply. I visited your RAF site, sounds like a good group of folks. As to the possible cliques within a airpark community, I think your advise and assessment is probably right on. Florida, from my searches appears to have the most airpark residential communities and prices are reasonable when compared to my home state of California. Florida and the Midwest isn't on my short list due to the humidity.

As cheap as the homes I've found here http://www.indianhillsairpark.com/Home_Page.html I would assume the makeup of this airpark is flying junkies that weren't corporate leaders, love flying so much they want to live with their planes, even if that means living in the middle of a desert 75 miles from any major town. Socially I would fit in, HOA dues are only $275 per year so elected members don't wield much in the way of power. I have to accept the fact that leaving the work force during my most productive years to care for my dad has altered my retirement lifestyle.

This Indian Hills Air Park home sold this year for <$200K
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I'll admit a rather modest modular home but with that kind of siding and the landscaping, would be almost zero upkeep, leaving plenty of time for flying. I'm single, never married and no kids, and don't need much for my retirement. There appears to be a larger than normal home turnover for this small place and I'm curious as to the reason. Maybe the non flying spouse?
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Re: Hang gliders to sailboats and back

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Re: Hang gliders to sailboats and back

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FlyingForFun wrote:That would be a great lifestyle. If I was single and making all the decisions on my own, I could go for that.
My stomping grounds now is the Sierra Foothills just west of Lake Tahoe. Even in a slow Searey, Tahoe is only 5 hours away from Salome, Arizona.
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Re: Picking the right Air Park

Post by Jack Tyler »

Bob, I agree. You can certainly find relatively inexpensive air parks. (Believe me when I say, on this thick July morning in N Florida, I can also understand your desire to escape humid climates). The cache' value of a few unique air parks aside (GA2 is a good example; 7FL6 is another one), as with any development an air park property's cost is going to be driven by a) land values, b) the physical amenities (at the least, the airstrip physical environment itself), and the quality/size/etc. of the home(s) built there. So sure: air park properties in the desert & 75 miles from anywhere should be reasonably priced. I've seen examples of this thru-out the Southwest and also Midwest. Another source of cheap air parks are individual land owners who had built an airstrip (or bought a property with one), with age find they don't want to move, can't the value out of the property they think is warranted, and so turn it into an air park. There are a number of examples of that in the FL Panhandle.

One of the most desirable air parks in N Florida - 7FL4 - is also one of the least expensive, so low cost doesn't have to mean isolation or a second rate experience. One of 7FL4's attributes is that they require sweat equity from the property owners, keeping airfield maintenance costs down. Another interesting twist is that the field itself - and only the airfield - is owned by a company in which the residential owners each hold an equal share. This provides a liability shield and, it seems to me, opens up an important topic to consider. If my neighbor invites a friend over, who then trips on his porch, it's not my problem. Rolling his plane into a small ball of aluminum on an airfield I jointly own...well, that would be different. A third quality at Haller are the unique individuals who own property there, and now we get into the area that makes some neighborhoods special places to live and others unnoteworthy. An EAA Chapter is based there. An a/c designer is building a new experimental design for mass, cheap production in one of the hangars. There are some families in their 30's there, not just us old folks. There's an unusual group of ex-Navy attack pilots based there, who all flew together 'back in the day' and then all flew for the airlines. They form something close to a nuclear mass all by themselves with their large joint hangar supplemented by 'squadron digs' & bunk room that are furnished right off an aircraft carrier. As with any residential neighborhood, the interesting and inclusive owners seem to draw more of their own kind and it's this kind of place I would be hoping to find.

Good luck on the hunt!
Jack
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Re: Hang gliders to sailboats and back

Post by deckofficer »

Thanks Jack.

One home recently sold at Haller from the original owner, built in 1988. 25 years does speak well for that community. Nothing is available now but I'll keep it bookmarked. I'm in no hurry at this time as I'm still caring for dad.
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Re: Hang gliders to sailboats and back

Post by Jack Tyler »

Again, good luck on the 'hunt', Bob.

FWIW Haller was recently able to get development rights to some adjacent land and is now selling small parcels. Don't know the details but I have seen the property. Of course, summers there - like here in Jax - bring gobs of humidity. Late Fall thru Spring OTOH are wonderful. Tough to have it all, isn't it?!
Jack
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Re: Hang gliders to sailboats and back

Post by drseti »

Since this has morphed into a discussion of residential airparks...

Some of you know that I was one of the founding members of the Frazier Lake Airpark (1C9, Hollister CA) when it was built more than 30 years ago. In fact, I still own a share and a hangar there, and get back at least once a year. Frazier Lake, however, is not residential. To find out why, read this:

http://avsport.org/publicat/nonfict/terra.htm
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: Hang gliders to sailboats and back

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Jack Tyler wrote:Again, good luck on the 'hunt', Bob.

FWIW Haller was recently able to get development rights to some adjacent land and is now selling small parcels. Don't know the details but I have seen the property. Of course, summers there - like here in Jax - bring gobs of humidity. Late Fall thru Spring OTOH are wonderful. Tough to have it all, isn't it?!
Yep, to have it all climate wise would require (2) air park homes. Since Big Bear Lake is under two hours from Solome, Arizona and I have friends with a lakeside cabin, I'll now have to take them up on their offers to stay at the cabin. Hope Big Bear Lake allows planes to land. Would be a good summer time day or overnight trip to escape the desert heat.

drseti,

So your saying your old air park can't expand because the rancher sees the value of his land rise due to your group putting in the airfield?
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Re: Hang gliders to sailboats and back

Post by Jack Tyler »

Bob, I think Paul is telling you that Farmer Joe had - or at least thought he had - a big barrel ready when Paul waltzed up for the pow-wow, and he put Paul and the other owners right over it.
Jack
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