mountain home, AR

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milhouse3254
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Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 12:04 am

mountain home, AR

Post by milhouse3254 »

Hey how's it going.... a big hello from one of the southern states. Here in the mountain home area, i do a lot of traveling, from northwest ark, all the way to northeast arkansas. I work on an ambulance over in newport, been doing that for the last 8 years, i've got some friends over in the batesville area that i will be getting into ultra lite, light sport aircraft, and experimental flying with. I have a great passion for flying, ever since i was a kid, of about 9 years old i would go up flying with my dads friend.

i've yet to actually obtain any sort of license for flying, but i am hoping to change that this year. Now i do have a question... kinda something i am confused about, and perhaps my friends are as well... They told me that all i need is a drivers license, and another pilot to train me to get my sports pilot license. Now with the research i've done so far, he is correct, that my drivers license will work in place of a medical. Now, heres where the rest differs, and my understanding of things gets a little cloudy.... It says that a "Qualified instructor" can teach you. Now does that mean, that someone who is qualified as a pilot, who instructs me, wouldnt that make them a qualified instructor.... now i understand that for your PPL you have to have a CFI teach you, but is it the same for the sport pilot.

If you still have to pay for a CFI and rent a play, then is it really still more "affordable". I understand that its half the hrs for PPL, but why not just spend the little extra and go all the way, your half way there anyways...

just my thoughts questions, and concerns
Dispatchguy
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Re: mountain home, AR

Post by Dispatchguy »

it can be :) As you'll learn in aviation, there are very few absolutes.

The way I understand it, is if you take instruction from a Full CFI, that instruction can also apply to a PPL if you decide to go that route after getting SPA.

If you take instruction from a CFIS - A Sport-only CFI, then that dual received DOESNT count to any of the flight time required for the PPL if you were to decide to go that route after the SPA.

I'm going to start on getting my SPA late this summer (after Oshkosh), and insure it all comes from a full CFI. I'm going the DL as a Class III route, and if the law does change after getting SPA, then I'll start to work on the PPL/IR.

But SPA will do for now...
Doug S, ADX
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Merlinspop
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Re: mountain home, AR

Post by Merlinspop »

Dispatchguy wrote:it can be :) As you'll learn in aviation, there are very few absolutes.

If you take instruction from a CFIS - A Sport-only CFI, then that dual received DOESN'T count to any of the flight time required for the PPL if you were to decide to go that route after the SPA.
Personally, I don't believe that this restriction (there is an effort to change this part of the regs, so maybe it'll be moot eventually) doesn't have the impact in real life as it does on paper.
Here's my reasoning:

There's still a large percentage of flight instructors who are only instructing as a time-honored means of accumulating hours needed to move onward and upward in aviation. This means that (assuming a time break between getting your SP and PP licenses) there's a good chance that the instructor you have for the PPL will not be the same one as you used for your SP. So, you'll end up having to 'review' all those tasks anyway, because your new instructor will have to sign off on your competency anyway. If you have rust on those skills or you're using a different airplane than you trained for your SP in, you may well end up using a good chunk of those 20 hours just getting back up to speed. This is regardless of the type of CFI you had for your SP. So there's probably ~5-10 hours right there. Add to that the night and instrument portions of the training that you would have to do for the PPL that's not part of the SP curriculum and you're getting close. In the grand scheme of things, having to repeat ~5-10 of training with a CFI isn't a killer, and is probably worthwhile additional training anyway. You can make sure that all of your XC work for the SP also meets the requirements for PP and your other solo time will also apply. You are out the cost of the written and practical exams for the SP, but hopefully you had several hours of enjoyable SP time in the period between SP and PP to make up for that.
- Bruce
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drseti
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Re: mountain home, AR

Post by drseti »

milhouse3254 wrote: all i need is a drivers license, and another pilot to train me to get my sports pilot license.
Either you misunderstood your friend, or he misspoke. So, let me clarify:

Yes, for the Sport Pilot rating (and, hopefully in the future, the Private Pilot rating as well - stay tuned as Congress considers pending legislation), a driver's license will satisfy the requirement for medical certification, as long as you haven't had an FAA medical ceetificate revoked, withdrawn, or refused. Losing an FAA medical is (and probably will always be) disqualifying. So, be cautioned about even applying for one unless absolutely necessary.

The traditional Certified Flight Instructor rating (FAR 91 Subpart H) requires the applicant to hold a Commercial Pilot license, and Instrument Rating, and a Class 2 medical. All instruction received from a Subpart H CFI clearly counts for higher ratings.

Ten years ago, FAA created the Sport Instructor rating under FAR 91 Subpart K. This rating does not require the applicant to hold a medical certificate, or a Commercial Pilot license, or an Instrument rating. Privileges are limited to instructing toward the Sport Pilot rating only, and only in an LSA. I was on the team that authored the proposal to the FAA to alter that restriction, to allow some (but not all) Subpart K training to count toward the Private. There's a lengthy thread elsewhere on this site that discusses that proposal and its implications. But, I should point out, the proposal was submitted three years ago, and FAA has yet to act. So, don't hold your breath.

Oh, and for either rating, in addition to receiving the required instruction and logging the required hours of dual and solo time, you have to take and pass an FAA Knowledge test (the "written") at an approved testing center, as well as an FAA Practical test (the "checkride") administered by a designated pilot examiner. Don't forget to factor in these costs.

Does the distinction between Subpart H and K really matter? Maybe. As already pointed out, you may require extensive additional dual toward the PPL after getting your SP, and that will be done with a Subpart H CFI, satisfying your required hours. OTOH, the best SP curricula (of which I like to believe my flight school is one) already include most of the PPL requirements, and if taught properly by a Subpart H CFI, will significantly reduce your required hours to upgrade. My last student to take the SP to PPL route needed only six hours of additional dual, to satisfy the night and hood flying requirements, and prepare for the checkride (which he easily passed).

Your mileage my vary. :wink:
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Jack Tyler
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Re: mountain home, AR

Post by Jack Tyler »

Somewhat in the same spirit as the observation that there are very few absolutes in aviation, I'd add to the other comments that a good place to begin planning your aviation training is with a thoughtful look at how, where and how often you'll fly. Some examples of what I mean:
-- You'll find this forum full of reports from around the country about the scarcity of rental LSA a/c, so much so that many folks with a genuine interest in the SP license have to delay or abandon their plans to learn how to fly, or they shift to a PPL curriculum. So think long-term availability of rental LSA a/c if renting is going to be the means by which you fly.
-- Similarly, others find only one rental LSA a/c that's conveniently nearby and it is also used for training. Naturally, this presents a scheduling - and perhaps a business priority - conflict. This can be complicated by living in a seasonal climate like yours, when usage levels are low when you might be less inclined to fly and high (in training & recreational flying) when the weather is more benign. Again, ask the obvious questions if this is the case in your area: how is the scheduling handled, how much down time do students and renters see from this one a/c, etc.
-- Do your career and/or family circumstances mean you might relocate for employment or personal reasons in the future? If so, I think it's an accurate statement that a PPL is probably a more 'portable' license given the much larger number of rental Part 23 a/c out there.
-- Will the restriction to fly with only a single passenger be sufficient for your plans with family members and/or circle of friends?

Perhaps a good analogy to my suggestion is the advice folks here often offer when someone asks what kind of plane they should buy. 'First, consider the mission. Then, choose the plane.' For a beginning flight student, I think it's a good idea to first consider your ultimate goals as a pilot as well as doing a thorough assessment of your local region re: rental a/c options & costs. And of course I haven't mentioned another criterion when choosing the license you'll be training for. Which are the truly excellent flight training programs in your area? Even if you decide one of the license options is less desirable, that doesn't mean you will be happy settling for a mediocre instructor and program for your preferred license.

Good luck with your plans. You're about to have some real adventure and accomplishment in your life.
Jack
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sandpiper
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Re: mountain home, AR

Post by sandpiper »

drseti wrote:
milhouse3254 wrote: all i need is a drivers license, and another pilot to train me to get my sports pilot license.
Either you misunderstood your friend, or he misspoke. So, let me clarify:

Yes, for the Sport Pilot rating (and, hopefully in the future, the Private Pilot rating as well - stay tuned as Congress considers pending legislation), a driver's license will satisfy the requirement for medical certification, as long as you haven't had an FAA medical ceetificate revoked, withdrawn, or refused. Losing an FAA medical is (and probably will always be) disqualifying. So, be cautioned about even applying for one unless absolutely necessary.

The traditional Certified Flight Instructor rating (FAR 91 Subpart H) requires the applicant to hold a Commercial Pilot license, and Instrument Rating, and a Class 2 medical. All instruction received from a Subpart H CFI clearly counts for higher ratings.

Ten years ago, FAA created the Sport Instructor rating under FAR 91 Subpart K. This rating does not require the applicant to hold a medical certificate, or a Commercial Pilot license, or an Instrument rating. Privileges are limited to instructing toward the Sport Pilot rating only, and only in an LSA. I was on the team that authored the proposal to the FAA to alter that restriction, to allow some (but not all) Subpart K training to count toward the Private. There's a lengthy thread elsewhere on this site that discusses that proposal and its implications. But, I should point out, the proposal was submitted three years ago, and FAA has yet to act. So, don't hold your breath.

Oh, and for either rating, in addition to receiving the required instruction and logging the required hours of dual and solo time, you have to take and pass an FAA Knowledge test (the "written") at an approved testing center, as well as an FAA Practical test (the "checkride") administered by a designated pilot examiner. Don't forget to factor in these costs.

Does the distinction between Subpart H and K really matter? Maybe. As already pointed out, you may require extensive additional dual toward the PPL after getting your SP, and that will be done with a Subpart H CFI, satisfying your required hours. OTOH, the best SP curricula (of which I like to believe my flight school is one) already include most of the PPL requirements, and if taught properly by a Subpart H CFI, will significantly reduce your required hours to upgrade. My last student to take the SP to PPL route needed only six hours of additional dual, to satisfy the night and hood flying requirements, and prepare for the checkride (which he easily passed).

Your mileage my vary. :wink:
It has been my understanding that a subpart H instructor without a medical can instruct a student (one with no license who cannot be PIC) in LSA. Have I been wrong about this??
John Horn
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drseti
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Re: mountain home, AR

Post by drseti »

That is my understanding too, John. Of course, without a current medical certificate, that Subpart H CFI can't give night instruction; he or she is PIC, and hence limited to exercising Sport Pilot privileges.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
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sandpiper
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Re: mountain home, AR

Post by sandpiper »

drseti wrote:That is my understanding too, John. Of course, without a current medical certificate, that Subpart H CFI can't give night instruction; he or she is PIC, and hence limited to exercising Sport Pilot privileges.
Thanks for the quick reply Paul. Just wanted to make sure. Plus we can give instruction in any "traditional" type aircraft, including night instruction, as long as we are not PIC and not a required crew member such as safety pilot for instrument training.

Anymore, about all the "instructing" I do is an occasional flight review to someone who is still current.
John Horn
Independence Airpark (7S5), OR
CFII, LSRM-A
Rotax Service, Maint, and Heavy Maint. trained
Flying a CTSW, building an RV-12
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