I am seeking the thoughts and insights of newer first-time pilots 'of a certain age', those who have taken the SP route. (The guys my first instructor disdainfully referred to as 'you bucket-listers'.)
I want to know if SP flying has met your expectations. I am still in the training process and have found it to require more perseverance than I expected. Not due to difficulties in actually learning to fly or of gaining the required 'book learning' (those things do present some challenges but are generally satisfying) but from the hassles of poorly run flight schools, disorganized CFI's, broken planes, etc.
I have determined to run this gauntlet--That's How Aviation Go, or so it seems. I keep looking forward to the prize at the end of the process.
And that is my current conundrum. Aside from the satisfaction of having earned the SP certificate, will the prize be worthwhile? My goal is to fly locally, within 150 miles, with occassional longer weekend trips stretching out 300-350 miles each way.
Is SP flying really ok for that? Have you found the reality of SP flying to be, more or less, what you wanted and expected it to be? What has been your greatest pleasant surprise? Your greatest disappointment?
I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks.
Seeking insights from new SP's age 40+
Moderator: drseti
I'm afraid a qualify...well over 40. I wanted to be able to improve my lifestyle and have fun. The operating costs of most airplanes was just too expensive, and renting for a trip was way out of line. My PiperSport was flown from Fort Pierce to Butter Valley via Fulton County in about 200 mile legs last year. This summer we flew out to Branson. I'm one of those 'nuts' that can spend an afternoon doing landing pattern work by myself and have a great time doing it. Tomorrow we plan to have breakfast in Blairstown. For me, LSA = Fun.
Dave
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Jim Stewart
- Posts: 467
- Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:49 pm
Nearly 60 year old pilot here.
Light Sport Aircraft, couldn't be more pleased. I *love* my CTSW. A marvelous aircraft that I and all my passengers love.
Sport Pilot, very much disappointed. After about a year and a half I gave up and started working on my private pilot rating. Got it this summer and couldn't be happier. If the time comes that I don't want to take a 3rd class medical, I can always fly with sport pilot privileges. Meanwhile I enjoy the 1 mile and clear of clouds and night flying privilege.
Light Sport Aircraft, couldn't be more pleased. I *love* my CTSW. A marvelous aircraft that I and all my passengers love.
Sport Pilot, very much disappointed. After about a year and a half I gave up and started working on my private pilot rating. Got it this summer and couldn't be happier. If the time comes that I don't want to take a 3rd class medical, I can always fly with sport pilot privileges. Meanwhile I enjoy the 1 mile and clear of clouds and night flying privilege.
SP of a certain age
I got my SP at 50+. (thanks for reminding me). Too many stories of 3rd Class Medical nightmares for me to go PP. But, as noted by Jim, PP has better privileges.
Overall, I think it's great. I fly a 2006 CTsw and I am very happy with the airplane's capabilities. 200-300 mile legs are easy (I recommend AP for trips over 100 miles or so, definitely less tiring).
Limitations? I'd like to fly at night and I think SPs should be permitted to do so with training and an endorsement. But, that's not likely.
I'm now at 300+ hours with 1300+ landings. Knowing what I know now, I'd do it all over again without a second thought. Your mileage may vary.
Overall, I think it's great. I fly a 2006 CTsw and I am very happy with the airplane's capabilities. 200-300 mile legs are easy (I recommend AP for trips over 100 miles or so, definitely less tiring).
Limitations? I'd like to fly at night and I think SPs should be permitted to do so with training and an endorsement. But, that's not likely.
I'm now at 300+ hours with 1300+ landings. Knowing what I know now, I'd do it all over again without a second thought. Your mileage may vary.
FredG
Iowa City
Iowa City
I am in somewhat of the same boat you are in only I have not started my flight training yet. The bucket list thing is kind of funny because I think for many of us that is basically what it is. I think most all of us have always wanted to fly but life tends to get in the way. I turned 44 a couple of weeks ago and plan on having my license before I am 45. I used to fly a Rans 12 when they were still allowed to use them for ultralight training and later I had five or 6 hours solo in a 152 but never got it finished.
I was really excited when I learned about the sport pilot license, as it would allow me to do everything I really want too anyway. The problem for me was the more I look into it, the more I don’t think it will work for me. Around here we don’t have that many for rent and the cost of a new one or even kind of new is way over my budget. The ones for rent are also training aircraft that you have to rent around their schedule. Another problem is if I decide to get my sport and then my private that does really appear to be an option around here anyway. I just saw tonight that the only place I know of doing both is closing as of December 1. Anyway it was something like $50 more an hour than I can get my private training. At that price I am only about 2k more for my private anyway
For me being able to have access to lots of rentals allows me to build hours while I figure out just what I want to do. For me my best chance of owning an airplane is a partnership or more likely an AB kit plane. I have been looking heavily at the Kitfoxes as they seem like they will do everything I really want them to do and you can find one in pretty decent shape for 30k or less. Many are sport pilot qualified but many are not too. I just want to have options. In the end I may decide to go a different direction.
I would love to be able to fly a CTSW like you guys have. They look like great fun. My hope is in a few years you will see some more partnerships and more rentals so the sport pilot license can be more practical for the average Joe. I make a pretty decent wage, for a working stiff, but 100k plus for a plane and $500 plus a month in fixed costs are way more than my marriage could ever stand.
I was really excited when I learned about the sport pilot license, as it would allow me to do everything I really want too anyway. The problem for me was the more I look into it, the more I don’t think it will work for me. Around here we don’t have that many for rent and the cost of a new one or even kind of new is way over my budget. The ones for rent are also training aircraft that you have to rent around their schedule. Another problem is if I decide to get my sport and then my private that does really appear to be an option around here anyway. I just saw tonight that the only place I know of doing both is closing as of December 1. Anyway it was something like $50 more an hour than I can get my private training. At that price I am only about 2k more for my private anyway
For me being able to have access to lots of rentals allows me to build hours while I figure out just what I want to do. For me my best chance of owning an airplane is a partnership or more likely an AB kit plane. I have been looking heavily at the Kitfoxes as they seem like they will do everything I really want them to do and you can find one in pretty decent shape for 30k or less. Many are sport pilot qualified but many are not too. I just want to have options. In the end I may decide to go a different direction.
I would love to be able to fly a CTSW like you guys have. They look like great fun. My hope is in a few years you will see some more partnerships and more rentals so the sport pilot license can be more practical for the average Joe. I make a pretty decent wage, for a working stiff, but 100k plus for a plane and $500 plus a month in fixed costs are way more than my marriage could ever stand.
I earned my SP Cert last year at age 55. Sport Pilot privs have been
great up til now. I am part owner of a Remos G3-600 and have over 100hrs.
What I have found is that it really does depend on the type of
flying you want to do. For weekend hops around the pattern and flying to
an occasional $100 hamburger they are great. I can only speak for my
airplane and that it can handle light to moderate turbulence without
beating your kidneys to death due to the light wing loading and weight.
This is one area that larger airplanes have.
I have and am about to do another long cross country and they are
adequate aircraft for that. But I have decided to start my PPL training
after the first of the year. I would like to fly at night and be able to fly
more that one passenger on occasion not to mention that I have my eye
on a nice Grumman Cheetah that would more than fit our needs.
So after this long diatribe would I get a SP Cert again? In a heartbeat. I
have built confidence and stick and rudder skills that I believe will make
me a better private pilot at a much lower per hour cost.
great up til now. I am part owner of a Remos G3-600 and have over 100hrs.
What I have found is that it really does depend on the type of
flying you want to do. For weekend hops around the pattern and flying to
an occasional $100 hamburger they are great. I can only speak for my
airplane and that it can handle light to moderate turbulence without
beating your kidneys to death due to the light wing loading and weight.
This is one area that larger airplanes have.
I have and am about to do another long cross country and they are
adequate aircraft for that. But I have decided to start my PPL training
after the first of the year. I would like to fly at night and be able to fly
more that one passenger on occasion not to mention that I have my eye
on a nice Grumman Cheetah that would more than fit our needs.
So after this long diatribe would I get a SP Cert again? In a heartbeat. I
have built confidence and stick and rudder skills that I believe will make
me a better private pilot at a much lower per hour cost.
Gene Mohr
Sport Pilot Upgrading to Private
180hrs and counting
Sport Pilot Upgrading to Private
180hrs and counting
I earned my SP license this past July at age 47. Started in February and I tell everyone it's the best thing I've ever done. I'm sure many here know "the feeling" you get when wheels leave the ground and you're in the sky. Nothing compares! I can't think of anything that has given me a greater sense of accomplishment than getting my ticket and flying an airplane. Have met a bunch of really great people as well. The SP restrictions are pretty much a non issue for me currently, though that can always change. I love LSA's and no need to fly with more than one passenger. I'm lucky to have a Cessna 162 to rent with plenty of availability, but am dying to get my own plane or more likely, a partnership.
I will say I had a great CFI. I really didn't know how good I had it until I read tons of reports of terrible CFI's. I think this is very important and suggest you look for instruction from someone you really "click" with, if possible. Training was a lot of fun. My CFI suggests I should become a Sport CFI. That may be my next step as opposed to PPL.
I will say I had a great CFI. I really didn't know how good I had it until I read tons of reports of terrible CFI's. I think this is very important and suggest you look for instruction from someone you really "click" with, if possible. Training was a lot of fun. My CFI suggests I should become a Sport CFI. That may be my next step as opposed to PPL.
Re: Seeking insights from new SP's age 40+
I think it sounds just right. The longer range requires better health. I am only 45, not obese, but I have some mysterious health issues that crop up after exertion. This limits the "day range" to about 300 nm. In practice, from home base in Albuquerque (Santa Fe really), at typical 100 kts GS, I can reach Denver and Phoenix, but Las Vegas may be too far. But again, it's not the age, it's your fitness.saintlfd wrote:Aside from the satisfaction of having earned the SP certificate, will the prize be worthwhile? My goal is to fly locally, within 150 miles, with occassional longer weekend trips stretching out 300-350 miles each way.
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Jack Tyler
- Posts: 1380
- Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:49 pm
- Location: Prescott AZ
- Contact:
Saintfld:
You can see several themes in the above comments and they parallel your own concern. If you co-own/own your a/c, the barriers to enjoyment (for a SP flying an LSA) are lowered substantially. Lack of LSA rental a/c, conflicts with training skeds, a mechanical malady that impacts students and renters alike when there is only one LSA: each of these prevent flying from being as spontaneous and open-ended as it deserves to be.
Based on what I've seen, the typical Part 23 rental a/c really doesn't offer much that a higher-end/more capable LSA doesn't when flown by a VFR-only PP. So, strictly speaking, being restricted to LSA a/c isn't much of a limitation. Speeds aren't that different, weather considerations are about the same (especially for low-time PP's), and most PP's fly at night only if they choose to maintain or re-establish currency. (Look at the log books for rental a/c at your school or FBO; bet you'll find almost all night flying hours are logged in ~1 hr increments). For many parts of the country, where Part 23 a/c excel (compared to a LSA) is in choice. You see many posts here that mention multiple airports within acceptable driving distance that each offer a Part 23 rental...but those same fields might only have one (or no) LSA rental a/c.
Co-ownership would bring sooo much more to the experience of flying than renting, and for not much (if any) more money, provided the owner flies regularly. And of course flying regularly is one of the key ways to fly safer. Annual flying hours for the 'average' pilot have dropped greatly over the past two decades, so almost all a/c sit in the spots unused for 99% of their lives - a perfect opportunity for a group sharing that resource, at greatly reduced cost, and with hardly any scheduling conflicts. (I speak from experience on that point...).
I think that one of the main reasons there is such a high drop-out rate among relatively advanced student pilots and also relatively new licensed pilots is that the main challenge they held in their mind - being good enough to fly by oneself, or getting that ticket - isn't replaced by other concrete challenges that resonate for them. Perhaps that's part of the Bucket List phenomenon. Been there, done that. When in truth, the new pilot really has - as the saying goes - been granted nothing more than a license to learn, and hasn't 'been anywhere, done very little'.
What they're missing of course is a host of incrementally greater satisfactions, just waiting for them 'out there' in the air. Imagine having enough experience-based confidence that you can invite your partner to choose the vacation destination and your job will be to get him/her there - and knowing you have the judgement, skills and wx savvy to do so safely - literally, the ability (with patience) to fly anywhere. And altho' it's invisible on the front end, probably nothing brings more of a sense of accomplishment to a pilot than earning the instrument rating and then actually using it. Imagine: flying blind...safely. These are two examples that inspire Airmen to remain involved in and challenged by aviation, although they are more easily accomplished when one is an owner, and of course in the latter case when one is a PP.
I think one of the best things about the SP license is that it gives folks, at essentially half the cost, to be able to experience general aviation inside the airport fence, learn what it's like to be a Pilot in Command, AND THEN determine how they feel about flying as an ongoing avocation. It's like a half-priced ticket to the Big Game. That's why, if it's practical for a person's location, I think a great option is starting one's training for the SP license but with an instructor that allows the time to be applied to the PP license (or at least most of it). Then your SP license leaves lots of doors open.
Best of luck on continuing to find the training a positive experience, and on avoiding most of the hassles you mentioned.
You can see several themes in the above comments and they parallel your own concern. If you co-own/own your a/c, the barriers to enjoyment (for a SP flying an LSA) are lowered substantially. Lack of LSA rental a/c, conflicts with training skeds, a mechanical malady that impacts students and renters alike when there is only one LSA: each of these prevent flying from being as spontaneous and open-ended as it deserves to be.
Based on what I've seen, the typical Part 23 rental a/c really doesn't offer much that a higher-end/more capable LSA doesn't when flown by a VFR-only PP. So, strictly speaking, being restricted to LSA a/c isn't much of a limitation. Speeds aren't that different, weather considerations are about the same (especially for low-time PP's), and most PP's fly at night only if they choose to maintain or re-establish currency. (Look at the log books for rental a/c at your school or FBO; bet you'll find almost all night flying hours are logged in ~1 hr increments). For many parts of the country, where Part 23 a/c excel (compared to a LSA) is in choice. You see many posts here that mention multiple airports within acceptable driving distance that each offer a Part 23 rental...but those same fields might only have one (or no) LSA rental a/c.
Co-ownership would bring sooo much more to the experience of flying than renting, and for not much (if any) more money, provided the owner flies regularly. And of course flying regularly is one of the key ways to fly safer. Annual flying hours for the 'average' pilot have dropped greatly over the past two decades, so almost all a/c sit in the spots unused for 99% of their lives - a perfect opportunity for a group sharing that resource, at greatly reduced cost, and with hardly any scheduling conflicts. (I speak from experience on that point...).
I think that one of the main reasons there is such a high drop-out rate among relatively advanced student pilots and also relatively new licensed pilots is that the main challenge they held in their mind - being good enough to fly by oneself, or getting that ticket - isn't replaced by other concrete challenges that resonate for them. Perhaps that's part of the Bucket List phenomenon. Been there, done that. When in truth, the new pilot really has - as the saying goes - been granted nothing more than a license to learn, and hasn't 'been anywhere, done very little'.
What they're missing of course is a host of incrementally greater satisfactions, just waiting for them 'out there' in the air. Imagine having enough experience-based confidence that you can invite your partner to choose the vacation destination and your job will be to get him/her there - and knowing you have the judgement, skills and wx savvy to do so safely - literally, the ability (with patience) to fly anywhere. And altho' it's invisible on the front end, probably nothing brings more of a sense of accomplishment to a pilot than earning the instrument rating and then actually using it. Imagine: flying blind...safely. These are two examples that inspire Airmen to remain involved in and challenged by aviation, although they are more easily accomplished when one is an owner, and of course in the latter case when one is a PP.
I think one of the best things about the SP license is that it gives folks, at essentially half the cost, to be able to experience general aviation inside the airport fence, learn what it's like to be a Pilot in Command, AND THEN determine how they feel about flying as an ongoing avocation. It's like a half-priced ticket to the Big Game. That's why, if it's practical for a person's location, I think a great option is starting one's training for the SP license but with an instructor that allows the time to be applied to the PP license (or at least most of it). Then your SP license leaves lots of doors open.
Best of luck on continuing to find the training a positive experience, and on avoiding most of the hassles you mentioned.
Jack
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org
Dave,
To me it is quite simple.... Flying is NOT a poor( or average) mans sport. It is expensive.. Now we all have different difinitions of expensive!!
If you have no issues with getting a medical I say get a PP license.
If you have issues then SP.
By all means buy (or partner) in a airplane.. If you train for 40-60 hours that's almost $3000 to $5000 towards the price of a airplane. Then rental is not an issue.
If you cannot buy or if you do not have reasonable access to renting an LSA don't bother getting your SP ticket..
I started training at an airport 3 hours drive from me 4 years ago.. Spent 5 hours renting and then bought a Allegro 2000 LSA with 100 hours on it.. With my CFI, flew it from North Carolina to Mesa, AZ in two days... In my first 23 hours, 18 were cross country!! I left my Allegro 3 hours away for a year while I traveled back and forth to train.. After cross country solos I moved my plane home and changed instructors.. After 2 years I finally took a check ride and now have my SP license.
I normally Fly within 100 miles of my home but for the last 2 years have flown 2 hours away to Page, Az to meet up with a group of 35-40 other LSA owners to fly over Grand Canyon, Lake Powell, and Monument Valley... It is what I look forward to each year.. Great people that I have become friends with and great scenery that I would have not have access to any other way..
I am now 60 and the wife is starting to travel more and more with me...
So if you can afford it jump in and join the fun... After 4 years of LSA ownership we are looking for more fun days ahead..
Brian
KTYL Taylor Az
To me it is quite simple.... Flying is NOT a poor( or average) mans sport. It is expensive.. Now we all have different difinitions of expensive!!
If you have no issues with getting a medical I say get a PP license.
If you have issues then SP.
By all means buy (or partner) in a airplane.. If you train for 40-60 hours that's almost $3000 to $5000 towards the price of a airplane. Then rental is not an issue.
If you cannot buy or if you do not have reasonable access to renting an LSA don't bother getting your SP ticket..
I started training at an airport 3 hours drive from me 4 years ago.. Spent 5 hours renting and then bought a Allegro 2000 LSA with 100 hours on it.. With my CFI, flew it from North Carolina to Mesa, AZ in two days... In my first 23 hours, 18 were cross country!! I left my Allegro 3 hours away for a year while I traveled back and forth to train.. After cross country solos I moved my plane home and changed instructors.. After 2 years I finally took a check ride and now have my SP license.
I normally Fly within 100 miles of my home but for the last 2 years have flown 2 hours away to Page, Az to meet up with a group of 35-40 other LSA owners to fly over Grand Canyon, Lake Powell, and Monument Valley... It is what I look forward to each year.. Great people that I have become friends with and great scenery that I would have not have access to any other way..
I am now 60 and the wife is starting to travel more and more with me...
So if you can afford it jump in and join the fun... After 4 years of LSA ownership we are looking for more fun days ahead..
Brian
KTYL Taylor Az
Owner of N3081X (Cover Girl) A Beautiful Allegro 2000 as seen on the cover and inside of several magazines!!
Started PP in 2005, but after the seatback failed on a 30 yr. old C172, during a wingover (very glad I wasn’t solo) I gave up for a while.
When I heard about SP and modern, economical LSAs I started flying again last year and got ticket this March. But I keep learning. I got my tailwheel and then LSRM-A. Glad I waited to buy a plane until after receiving SP, I knew then which plane I wanted. Now I’m starting to work on PP in my own (used) LSA. I’m in no hurry, so far the only privilege I wish I had is flying on top.
To me SP wasn’t the goal, flying is.
+1 SP and LSA (age 47)
When I heard about SP and modern, economical LSAs I started flying again last year and got ticket this March. But I keep learning. I got my tailwheel and then LSRM-A. Glad I waited to buy a plane until after receiving SP, I knew then which plane I wanted. Now I’m starting to work on PP in my own (used) LSA. I’m in no hurry, so far the only privilege I wish I had is flying on top.
To me SP wasn’t the goal, flying is.
+1 SP and LSA (age 47)
I flew my first two years with my LSA as a PP then let my medical lapse due to mostly laziness and it didn't make a difference for me. I do exactly what you're looking for -- and more -- flying with SP privileges. I regularly fly trips to Tulsa (175nm) and Fort Walton, FL (545nm). As Jack points out, the faster LSAs makes these trips in about the same time as a 172. Weather doesn't materially affect an SP more than a PP.And that is my current conundrum. Aside from the satisfaction of having earned the SP certificate, will the prize be worthwhile? My goal is to fly locally, within 150 miles, with occassional longer weekend trips stretching out 300-350 miles each way.
Is SP flying really ok for that? Have you found the reality of SP flying to be, more or less, what you wanted and expected it to be? What has been your greatest pleasant surprise? Your greatest disappointment?
No disappointment in the SP.
I'm not a fan of flying singles at night or without an instrument rating. Been there, done that, enjoyed it but it's not in my mission now. VFR on top would be nice but doesn't factor in as much in TX as it did when I lived in VA: can't fly over cumulo-granite
If you plan on using a light plane as transportion then you need a PP with an instrument rating. If you plan on using an LSA for taking trips, then an SP is all you need.
Just curious, are you flying out of DTO? I was under the impression they had several LSAs there.
dave
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Jack Tyler
- Posts: 1380
- Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:49 pm
- Location: Prescott AZ
- Contact:
Two follow-ups for the OP Dave:
-- the two posts above this one both reference an important variable in the SP/PP choice: the weather and the seasonal variations where you will be flying. E.g. in the great Southwest, you'll experience fewer weather-related obstacles to enjoyable flying as a SP when compared to flying in the Mid-Atlantic states. Just part of the broader issue of which license best manages the mission(s) you intend to fly.
-- wish I'd mentioned in my post above (even tho' I realize it's a bit redundant) that, if you want to explore the notion of joining or forming a a/c partnership, AOPA has a wealth of info on their website that will get you much closer to understanding the issues and how to manage them. Can't recommend those resources enough.
-- the two posts above this one both reference an important variable in the SP/PP choice: the weather and the seasonal variations where you will be flying. E.g. in the great Southwest, you'll experience fewer weather-related obstacles to enjoyable flying as a SP when compared to flying in the Mid-Atlantic states. Just part of the broader issue of which license best manages the mission(s) you intend to fly.
-- wish I'd mentioned in my post above (even tho' I realize it's a bit redundant) that, if you want to explore the notion of joining or forming a a/c partnership, AOPA has a wealth of info on their website that will get you much closer to understanding the issues and how to manage them. Can't recommend those resources enough.
Jack
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org
SP reality
Thanks so much for all the advice and counsel. I have followed this forum for some time--first in anticipation of training, now in the midst of it--and I recognize many of you from past postings. I am a bit intimidated by your aviation experience, especially when looking at my pitiful logbook.
I do see the SP as a reasonable first step. If all goes well and I really get into it, then I can pursue the PP.
I have been flying out of ADS, which is less than ideal. I am considering switching to DTO; when I looked at that option a few months ago they were uncertain about their future with SP. Besides, they really are preoccupied with training large numbers of new pilots for asian airlines. One older SP student is not that important to them.
While I am keeping my eyes open for a CFI that really knows how to teach, I have determined to gain the required knowledge from other sources and have the CFI simply (and importantly) help me learn to control the aircraft and execute the required maneuvers.
Thanks again for your advice.
P.S. Brian, I hope to participate in the Page Fly-in; it sounds great. And I have the Allegro on my short list of LSA's that check most of the boxes for me. Seems to be a good fit.
I do see the SP as a reasonable first step. If all goes well and I really get into it, then I can pursue the PP.
I have been flying out of ADS, which is less than ideal. I am considering switching to DTO; when I looked at that option a few months ago they were uncertain about their future with SP. Besides, they really are preoccupied with training large numbers of new pilots for asian airlines. One older SP student is not that important to them.
While I am keeping my eyes open for a CFI that really knows how to teach, I have determined to gain the required knowledge from other sources and have the CFI simply (and importantly) help me learn to control the aircraft and execute the required maneuvers.
Thanks again for your advice.
P.S. Brian, I hope to participate in the Page Fly-in; it sounds great. And I have the Allegro on my short list of LSA's that check most of the boxes for me. Seems to be a good fit.
DAVE