Sport Pilot Talk

3Dreaming wrote:

MrMorden wrote:

3Dreaming wrote:
I'll bet you can't look at them and tell me when you have 25 gallons remaining.

No, but if I have five hours flight time remaining, the question is not exactly critical.

Yeah, but they can still show full when you have used more than a 1/3 of your fuel.

Yeah, only having 4-5 hours to find an airport and get on the ground "because my sight tubes misled me" is pretty nerve-wracking...

Here's the problem I have with the "fuel gauge only has to be accurate when empty" FAR:

Isn't the most conservative course of action when confronted with a fuel gauge on empty is to assume the gauge is telling the truth? So the best course of action is to not depart at all. If you *do* depart with the gauge on empty, and the full tanks drain out due to something like a leak or fuel cap left off, I have no trouble believing the FAA *might* tack "careless and reckless" onto the accident report for departing with "empty" tanks, even though the tanks were full at departure and you were operating according to the FARs.

MrMorden wrote:Here's the problem I have with the "fuel gauge only has to be accurate when empty" FAR:

Isn't the most conservative course of action when confronted with a fuel gauge on empty is to assume the gauge is telling the truth? So the best course of action is to not depart at all. If you *do* depart with the gauge on empty, and the full tanks drain out due to something like a leak or fuel cap left off, I have no trouble believing the FAA *might* tack "careless and reckless" onto the accident report for departing with "empty" tanks, even though the tanks were full at departure and you were operating according to the FARs.

What you are quoting from the FAR's is not quite accurate anymore, it has been rewritten and the term "zero" or empty is no longer in the text. If you read the FAR today it says that each fuel system must:

(4) Provide the flightcrew with a means to determine the total useable fuel available and provide uninterrupted supply of that fuel when the system is correctly operated, accounting for likely fuel fluctuations;

This means that the fuel gauge must tell the pilot the amount of "useable" fuel available. Whatever that amount is.

Thanks, Shawn. What is the number of that specific FAR?

drseti wrote:Thanks, Shawn. What is the number of that specific FAR?

Here's a link to it.....
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveEC ... 1.23_12430

This page of the FAR's is current as of 5/7/2020.

I don't think part 23 applies since that is certification standards for a standard category aircraft, especially since this is a SLSA. What would apply is 91.205 (b), (9) Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank. Also you would have to look at the ASTM standards, which I don't have a copy.

Tom is right. Part 23 applies only to certified aircraft. As for him not having access to ASTM standards, neither do I. They are ridiculously expensive. The only time I've actually seen an ASTM standard was when I was in industry, and NASA was paying for it. It's a sore point with me that we have to maintain SLSAs according to standards that none of us have seen (but that's a topic for a thread if its own).

You are both correct however Andy was loosely quoting the old part 23 FAR for the fuel gauge instrument only being correct when it's empty which has been updated. I just wanted readers to know that that's not the case anymore. There are some who are training or have done some training in "certified" aircraft so this would apply in those rare instances. I know we don't fly "certificated" aircraft instead ones governed by ASTM standards.

drseti wrote:Tom is right. Part 23 applies only to certified aircraft. As for him not having access to ASTM standards, neither do I. They are ridiculously expensive. The only time I've actually seen an ASTM standard was when I was in industry, and NASA was paying for it. It's a sore point with me that we have to maintain SLSAs according to standards that none of us have seen (but that's a topic for a thread if its own).

When I worked in private industry our company turned down the chance to bid on LUCRATIVE military projects because of the high costs associated with getting all the ASTM manuals and creating the mountain of paper to apply. It wasn't worth the gamble for them.

As the PIC, you have a responsibility not operate an aircraft you do not feel is airworthy. A standard or FAR is the minimum and hoping the aircraft owner agrees with your interpretation leaves a lot to be desired.

However, as the renter, customer, I would tell the school that until the fuel system is repaired you will not rent the aircraft because you do not feel it is airworthy in that condition. You pay good money and should expect a quality product. If they refuse to do the necessary repairs let the aircraft sit there and collect dust. Rent something different or go somewhere else with your business.

There is no excuse for a school that rents aircraft to allow any of their aircraft to go out with any fuel system related problems. Aircraft maintenance is the responsibility of the owner / operators. If it is not airworthy don't fly it. If the owner won't fix the problem, don't rent it.

Good luck with them and stand your ground.

Randall Bearden
Sport Pilot
LSRM-A

I found this article https://pilot-protection-services.aopa. ... -attention

They should repair it to avoid liability or a fine.

In the cited article, Kathy Yodice says:

we turn to 14 CFR 91.205. It stipulates that for operations with a standard category airworthiness certificate, an operable fuel gauge is required.

Notice she references a standard category airworthiness certificate. I wonder if this FAR applies to aircraft with special airworthiness certificates (such as SLSAs)?

drseti wrote:In the cited article, Kathy Yodice says:

we turn to 14 CFR 91.205. It stipulates that for operations with a standard category airworthiness certificate, an operable fuel gauge is required.

Notice she references a standard category airworthiness certificate. I wonder if this FAR applies to aircraft with special airworthiness certificates (such as SLSAs)?

Probably depends on the wording in the operating limitations attached to the airworthiness certificate. My guess is that they probably refer to 91.205.

3Dreaming wrote: Probably depends on the wording in the operating limitations attached to the airworthiness certificate. My guess is that they probably refer to 91.205.

Now this is curious, Tom. From my Operating Limitations:
My equipment list doesn't specify fuel gauges (though the fuel sensors are attached to my Dynon Skyview). So, the only reference to 91.205 is with regard to night and IFR operation!

I suppose then it falls back to the ASTM requirements. I'm not certain what they require, but I suspect that an operating fuel gauge is required.