Direction of Sports Pilot Industry

[flyingclay]

Am somewhat new to flying, however my observation as a businessman, is the industry currently "preaches (markets) to the choir". Am amazed at the masses of population that have no awareness about Sport Pilot program, LSA aircraft etc. I feel there is a lot of people such as myself, that are interested in this type of activity for the experience and hobby verses a form of transportation from point A to B.
I think if the SP industry, continues to become more affordable in time, quality of LSA offered (as is happening now) and improves in marketing to the general poplulation in a more effective manner, there is an explosive future ahead for SP aviation.
If motorcycles and motor boats had the expense of small aviation, there would be about as many involved with them as SP/GA.
No real reason for this post except as someone that enjoys observing market/opportunities with tremendous potential, it appears general aviation in the SP has an untapped potential but surprised at how little effort is put in touching the massess about it.

[ArionAv8or]

I personally believe that as the cost of LSA aircraft comes down you will see an increase in activity. As it stands right now you have two choices for the SP, antique aircraft such as the Ercoupes, Luscombes and Cub or new shiny LSAs with most running in the 6 figures. Most flight schools find it more difficult to obtain insurance on the antique aircraft and have the philosophy that they can get 3 or 4 150s for the cost of 1 LSA. This means they can have 3 to 4 times the PPL students in the air making them more money that a LSA can produce. It also means they can have 3 to 4 more rentals available on the ramp. If you compare the performance, and fun factor, of the two aircraft I believe the LSA will win out over the 150 every time. I also believe that if more of them had LSAs in their fleet they would see more students and rentals. You still have to get over the initial investment of the aircraft to realize any return. I know that with my local flight school I was the last Sport Pilot they trained and that was over a year ago. I started my training in an Aerostar Festival and purchased my own plane half way through my studies. After flying the Festival I can see why no one would want to rent it. If the school had a better option for SP I think they would see more students, they are just not willing to make the investment. If you buy a plane for 30K or 40K and use it for flight school or rentals it pays for itself fairly quickly. If you spend 100K it take a little longer to see a return. The way I see it, you have to spend money make money.

[LightSportFlyer]

I can see the original posters point and in my opinion only three LSA manufacturers really "get it" when it comes to making an lsa that the general public can get turned on over: the Icon, Cubcrafters Carbon Cub SS, and AMD's CH 750. Each one of these planes offers something very different than all the others and makes maxing out the fun factor its priority as it should be with these type of planes.

The Icon being a truly unique amphib with a very simple panel already has 400 orders I'm told. The Cubcrafters Carbon SS is the king of climb outs with that big engine no other lsa has and is selling well. And the CH 750 with its STOL is truly unique and offers a good value. Most other lsa's seem to be fairly similar and try to differentiate themselves just with features and price.

As a newcomer there are a couple of issues that have kept me from buying into the whole lsa concept. First seeing how most of them have an engine made in Austria of all places ( the Rotax ) does not inspire confidence in newcomers who don't know its history. While I know many of you who are already pilots will disagree remember you're selling to newbee's where perception is key.

And still not being able to get a Rotax serviced at many airports even after 5 years of lsa's being out is ridiculous. How many of us would buy a car with an engine made in Austria that we couldn't get serviced locally ? None thats how many yet the industry expects us to accept this risk and inconvenience.

And finally after 5 years of waiting Lycoming has come out with what looks to be a very good American made lsa engine, the IO-233. But I suspect they're going to have a tough time convincing all those european lsa manaufacturers to switch from Rotax though I hope many will.

And after seeing how Cessna has truly botched their Skycatcher program with 2 crashes, many delays, and now annoucing its going to be made in China of all places - again does not inspire confidence in its target market of new pilots.

Again remember with the general public and trying to attract new pilots perception is key and it hasn't been good in this industry to date.

I'd like to join the club but I'm still on the fence.

[3Dreaming]

LightSportFlyer, you wouldn't take a fine watch to the local repair shop to be fixed would you? The Rotax engine 60 years ahead of the offering by Lycoming and Continental. It is a finely engineered piece of machinery, and Rotax wants trained technicians working on them. You wouldn't take your BMW or Mercedes to a shade tree mechanic would you. Also if Lycoming wants when they have the IO-233 available they could put in thier manual that you have to have factory training, so people could be in the same boat there.

[flyingclay]

Its interesting (as a newbie) I view Cessna's Skycatchers situaition as a positive, not a negative. The delays and crashes are a positive to me as my preception is they are doing the research and testing to get it right and safe.
I also don't think that the ICON is necessarily where I would put my money from a business perspective. I think in time, if the PiperSport, SkyCatcher and Flightdesign CTS type planes build a safe track record, you will see more people gravitate to those. My reason is I think most will be concerned with Safety, Simple and "Neat". By neat, I mean the updated avionics panels look modern and not like the old cessna 150 I am currently training in. Yes it is functional, but not "interesting".
If a company can build safe, simple and neat, LSA, and become effective at marketing/touching the middle age and up group PLUS create enough demand where they can produce a greater volume aircraft, the price will decrease. (The more the deman to make, the volume will decrease the cost factor per unit meade).
THE FORMULA = SAFE, FUN, AFFORDABLE then the duplication of SP would begin geometrically growing.

[LightSportFlyer]

LightSportFlyer, you wouldn't take a fine watch to the local repair shop to be fixed would you? The Rotax engine 60 years ahead of the offering by Lycoming and Continental. It is a finely engineered piece of machinery, and Rotax wants trained technicians working on them. You wouldn't take your BMW or Mercedes to a shade tree mechanic would you. Also if Lycoming wants when they have the IO-233 available they could put in thier manual that you have to have factory training, so people could be in the same boat there.

Rotax has already had 5 years to get more of its highly trained technicians out in the field, and many A & P's have baulked at the additional training costs. Its a catch 22 situation.

As for taking my BMW to a "shade tree mechanic" ( kind of an insult to existing A & Ps ), if there isn't a dealer close I can call a tow truck and haul it there. Can I do the same with my lsa to a Rotax dealer hundreds of miles away ? No he's got to come to the plane and travel costs are on my nickel.

And you know that current A & Ps available at any airport can already work on the IO-233 cause its so similar to Lycomings O-235 which it's based off of and has been out for many many years already.

[flyingclay]

"LightSportFlyer" and "3Dreaming" have also brought up another valid item that I think will greatly affect the future of the LSA company that steps out of the current paradigm and moves into dominate the industry. That is they will have strategically located service centers for aircraft distributed across the US. The masses future SP don't want to become mechanics. They are busy people with other jobs and careers that want to Fly Safely and Enjoy the experience.

[ArionAv8or]

Without getting into the whole "Rotax" debate I can tell you to each his own. That is the great thing about having so many different manufactures, we have so many different choices. I personally fly a Jabiru and prefer it to Rotax, but that is just my opinion. As for the planes, you have to choose something that trips your trigger. I love the low wingers but will admit the new Carbon Cub SS with the larger engine is a great choice if you can use it's features. I looked at everything on the market and flew a few before I made my decision. I chose the Lightning LS-1 w/ 120hp Jabiru engine and couldn't be happier. I know people that have the Sonex, it's not for me but that doesn't make it a great aircraft for the right person.

[flyingclay]

Exactly "ArionAv8or". That is why some ride a Harleys, some ride Yamaha's and I ride a Honda Valkrie, cause its the best! ha Just kidding. Not everyone desires the all the same things. What I have observed about learning about LSA aircraft, it is harder to really learn about the differences like you can motorcycles, (where you can go test drive 10 in a day). Being skepticalm I also never know if its a dealer plugging what they are selling etc.......

[ArionAv8or]

Exactly "ArionAv8or". That is why some ride a Harleys, some ride Yamaha's and I ride a Honda Valkrie, cause its the best! ha Just kidding. Not everyone desires the all the same things. What I have observed about learning about LSA aircraft, it is harder to really learn about the differences like you can motorcycles, (where you can go test drive 10 in a day). Being skepticalm I also never know if its a dealer plugging what they are selling etc.......

I happen to ride a Harley Electra-Glide Classic but I won't hold the whole Valkrie thing against you, if I did you would just run off and leave me in the dust anyway, LOL. When you start looking at aircraft to buy do what I did in researching the ones I wanted, get rides from the owners instead of the dealers. I went to Sun-n-Fun and the Sebring LSA Expo to educate myself on the different manufactures. I sat in all of them and read up on the specs and safety features. I narrowed my search for what I was looking for and sought out owners to get actual feedback and info from. You will be surprised how many aircraft owners are all too happy to take you for a ride, especially the ones who really love their planes. After being aloft it didn't take long to know which one I had to have.

[3Dreaming]

LightSportFlyer, you wouldn't take a fine watch to the local repair shop to be fixed would you? The Rotax engine 60 years ahead of the offering by Lycoming and Continental. It is a finely engineered piece of machinery, and Rotax wants trained technicians working on them. You wouldn't take your BMW or Mercedes to a shade tree mechanic would you. Also if Lycoming wants when they have the IO-233 available they could put in thier manual that you have to have factory training, so people could be in the same boat there.

Rotax has already had 5 years to get more of its highly trained technicians out in the field, and many A & P's have baulked at the additional training costs. Its a catch 22 situation.

Having A&P's baulking at training is the fault of Rotax? For most A&P's it is a bussiness decision. The more engines that are out there, the more need for people to work on them, then more mechanics will want to cash in on being able to provide the service.

As for taking my BMW to a "shade tree mechanic" ( kind of an insult to existing A & Ps ), if there isn't a dealer close I can call a tow truck and haul it there. Can I do the same with my lsa to a Rotax dealer hundreds of miles away ? No he's got to come to the plane and travel costs are on my nickel.

This was not meant as an insult to A&P's. I am an A&P, but I chose to get the additional training to work on the engines. The point I was trying to make is the Rotax very fine piece of machinery as compared to traditional aircraft engines, so taking to a trained technician would be a good thing. If you are worried about traveling offer to pay for your local mechanic to get the training.

And you know that current A & Ps available at any airport can already work on the IO-233 cause its so similar to Lycomings O-235 which it's based off of and has been out for many many years already.

If Lycoming produces this engine as an ASTM complient engine then who ever works on it will have to follow the maintenance manual. It they decide to put in the manual that you have to have factory training to work on it all the experience in the world won't make you legal to work on it.

[LightSportFlyer]

Having A&P's baulking at training is the fault of Rotax? For most A&P's it is a bussiness decision. The more engines that are out there, the more need for people to work on them, then more mechanics will want to cash in on being able to provide the service.

Right just like I said - its a catch 22 that hasn't been working for 5 years already.

This was not meant as an insult to A&P's. I am an A&P, but I chose to get the additional training to work on the engines. The point I was trying to make is the Rotax very fine piece of machinery as compared to traditional aircraft engines, so taking to a trained technician would be a good thing. If you are worried about traveling offer to pay for your local mechanic to get the training.

ME having to pay for my local mechanic's training - so he then go out and make money on other customers from the money I spent for his training ??? That's just incredible, they're in business let them go spend their own money.

If Lycoming produces this engine as an ASTM complient engine then who ever works on it will have to follow the maintenance manual. It they decide to put in the manual that you have to have factory training to work on it all the experience in the world won't make you legal to work on it.

The IO-233 is supposed to be a certified engine soon. If you are somehow equating the small amount of additional training the IO-233 may require versus the complete training package needed to work on a Rotax, well even you knows thats not a fair comparison.

[3Dreaming]

Having A&P's baulking at training is the fault of Rotax? For most A&P's it is a bussiness decision. The more engines that are out there, the more need for people to work on them, then more mechanics will want to cash in on being able to provide the service.

Right just like I said - its a catch 22 that hasn't been working for 5 years already.

This was not meant as an insult to A&P's. I am an A&P, but I chose to get the additional training to work on the engines. The point I was trying to make is the Rotax very fine piece of machinery as compared to traditional aircraft engines, so taking to a trained technician would be a good thing. If you are worried about traveling offer to pay for your local mechanic to get the training.

ME having to pay for my local mechanic's training - so he then go out and make money on other customers from the money I spent for his training ??? That's just incredible, they're in business let them go spend their own money.

If Lycoming produces this engine as an ASTM complient engine then who ever works on it will have to follow the maintenance manual. It they decide to put in the manual that you have to have factory training to work on it all the experience in the world won't make you legal to work on it.

The IO-233 is supposed to be a certified engine soon. If you are somehow equating the small amount of additional training the IO-233 may require versus the complete training package needed to work on a Rotax, well even you knows thats not a fair comparison.

I couldn't find any place that says the IO-233 will be a certified engine, but found several that said it is not. Lycoming even says they are adding service centers to take care of the new engines. You might have to take it to one of them to get it worked on. http://www.lycoming.textron.com/news-an ... hkosh.html All I'm trying to say is if it is an ASTM complient engine Lycoming can say you have to have training to work on it. I guess until they start selling them it really dosen't matter. Maybe they are waiting on some of the outsourced parts from Austria.

[LightSportFlyer]

[I couldn't find any place that says the IO-233 will be a certified engine, but found several that said it is not. Lycoming even says they are adding service centers to take care of the new engines. You might have to take it to one of them to get it worked on. http://www.lycoming.textron.com/news-an ... hkosh.html All I'm trying to say is if it is an ASTM complient engine Lycoming can say you have to have training to work on it. I guess until they start selling them it really dosen't matter. Maybe they are waiting on some of the outsourced parts from Austria.

Says right on Lycoming's July 26 press release for the 233 Series LSA Engine "Certification for the engine is pending." Additionally according to Dan Johnson's website report, Oshkosh Day 4, it will also be cheaper than the Rotax 100 hp 912 and delivers 115 hp as well.

Your other comments are pure speculation, cheap shot on the outsourced parts from Austria - thought you were better than that.

http://www.lycoming.com/news-and-events ... 6-10b.html

http://www.bydanjohnson.com/

[flyingclay]

As a novice, that is new to all this, it appears to me, it is 'pending". What does that mean? Per Dan Johnson, dont know who he is or anything about him, except every time I try to learn something and his sight comes up, it says he wants $29 of my money.