Opinions wanted please on purchase or rental of LSA

[bob.s]

The title says it all, I've read and read this forums and others like it to gather facts, now I’m looking for opinions.

A little background: I'm 47 years old and always wanted to fly, but other things always got in the way. Sometime early next year all the finances are going to be lined out and I'm going to start sport pilot training. I work for Toyota and travel quite a bit to all their plants in North America.

My original plan was to purchase a completed kit plane, then get the SportPilot license. That way I would be able to fly whenever I wanted and stay in practice. I'm thinking at my age it would be better to fly frequently to avoid getting rusty. I travel too much to build my own and from what I’ve seen you can buy completed flying planes cheaper than you can buy and build the kit.

My dear wife thinks that I should just get the SP license and then rent a sport plane when I want to fly, thereby avoiding the upfront cost, the insurance, and upkeep. Rental could be a problem at times since as far as I can find there is only one LSA for rental here in Lexington, Ky. It goes for $92/hr wet.

My thought is that purchasing a plane outright will allow me to fly on a more regular basis, since I won’t have the scheduling issue to work around. Maintenance won't be an issue, I can handle all the maintenance myself including overhauls. If I get something like a kitfox with folding wings I can store it in my barn and avoid hangar fees. Plus, since I travel a lot for work, it would be nice if I could fly to some of the places I have to go to and have the plane there for the 3 or 4 weeks I might have to stay.

So for those of you that have more experience than me;

What's your opinion on the cost of buying versus renting, which way am I going to be better off?

In case I end up buying is it a bad idea at my age to try and learn to fly a tail dragger AND is the cost of insuring one that much more than a trike gear one? (Seems like taildraggers are the only ones I can find with folding wings)

[shasta]

Bob sounds like we are in basically the same boat. I am just starting this myself too and was thinking almost exactly the same way you are.

For me I know if I rent I will just not fly that much. I can rent a really nice little sting sport for $85 wet but can’t really take it anywhere. If I want to take off for a couple of days it is just not possible because they need it for training. Also if I know I have to write a check every time I want to go for a ride I know it will limit just how much I fly. Now if I own my own plane I have fixed costs like hanger fees and insurance but all I really have to pay for is gas that day. I know it is a mind trick but the more hours I fly, the cheaper it is an hour. I just know I would fly a heck of a lot more.

As far as the Kitfox I have been looking at them myself. I am going to go check out a guy’s plane he is building next week. They do seem perfect for the type of flying I would like to do. I too am worried about the tailwheel but everyone assures me they can be learned. I am sure you know this but many of the Kitfoxes are trigear or can be converted. Also Zenith has the 701 that has folding wings and trigear. There are quite a few of them showing up on Barnstormers too. I would love to build a plane but I think it would be much better for me to spend that time learning how to fly and building hours. With this market you can buy a whole lot cheaper than you can build an airplane.

[cogito]

I was in a similar position (and age) when I started training about a year ago, here's what I did:

I rented the CFI's LSA (pipersport) for training. I had to schedule him anyway (most of the time) and he knew the plane well. I wouldn't purchase a plane until I flew enough to know what kind of a/c would suit me best.

I thought I might also like to own a taildragger, so after my sport pilot cert. I got my tailwheel endorsement in a beautiful aeronca champ. Instructor and plane $75/hr. including fuel. By then I'd flown enough both tailwheel and tricycle gear to know which I wanted to own.

I was then considering buying an ELSA kit plane and was planning on helping someone build his to see if I felt confident to do it for myself, but that experience didn't work out and I decided I wanted to fly rather than build.

Then I took the LSA repairman course (3 wks at rainbow aviation) and asked the instructors and students a million questions about the LSA's (safety records, handling, missions, etc) By then I knew the plane I wanted, had flown one, and when one with low hours and low price showed up on barnstormers I was ready. And because of my repairman training I was also able to help diagnose a couple squawks on the plane and have them fixed before I handed over the check. I did have an A&P do a pre-buy (not expensive) before I flew to washington state where I bought the plane.

Renting at first made sense, what if I decided flying and a/c ownership wasn't for me? I could just walk away. Also, there's a lot to the care and feeding of your own LSA. (insurance, hangar/ tie downs, complying with safety bulletins, maintenance schedules, etc.) I wouldn't have wanted to deal with all of that at the same time I was training for my pilot certificate.

If I had purchased a plane when I started I would have spent more money and likely ended up with a plane that doesn't suit me as well as the one I now own. (and the ELSA kit would have cost far more than what I spent on my plane)

just my own experiences, ymmv.

btw, it's my understanding you can't fly for work under a sport pilot certificate. Not even "in furtherance of a business."

[drseti]

it's my understanding you can't fly for work under a sport pilot certificate. Not even "in furtherance of a business."

Absolutely true. No air commuting to work. No flying it on business trips, or to professional meetings. You are only allowed to fly for sport as a SP, and rightly so -- to do otherwise will put you under time pressure, and you will be inclined to rationalize flying when it's not really safe for you to do so.

Not only the Sport Pilot, but also the LSA itself are restricted in terms of commercial operations -- the Operating Limitations sheet issued to each LSA by the FAA spells this out. The only exceptions listed in mine are glider towing and flight instruction.

That said, owning your own LSA, and flying it purely for fun, can be great! I find the break-even point for ownership vs. renting comes at about 100 hours a year. If you fly less than that, it's cheaper to rent (inconvenience and availability aside). At more than 100 hours a year, you're amortizing the insurance, hangar rent, annual inspection, tires, brakes, batteries, static/transponder checks, gearbox inspections, carburetor overhauls, and mandatory replacement of time-limited components adequately.

[drseti]

Maintenance won't be an issue, I can handle all the maintenance myself including overhauls.

Bob, I have no doubt you have the mechanical skills to handle the maintenance, but do you (or will you) have the proper FAA Aviation Maintenance Technician certificate? The repairman certificate that comes with a homebuilt is only issued to the original builder, and is not transferable. To do your own maintenance and inspections, you really need to take the three-week course at Rainbow Aviation that Cogito mentioned. It's a fantastic course, and gets you the required certificate, but it ain't cheap. For me, the total cost of that course (including airfare, car rental, hotel, meals, tuition, books, and incidentals) ran about $7000. If having the LSRM-A rating saves you $500 per annual inspection, you need to own a plane for 14 years to break even!

[drseti]

If I get something like a kitfox with folding wings I can store it in my barn and avoid hangar fees.

First off, there are several tricycle-gear LSAs with folding wings (kitfox even has a nosewheel version in kit form). Avoiding hangar rent can be appealing, but trailering the plane to the airport every time you want to fly it may be false economy. And, I've known too many planes get damaged when they were stored in someone's barn or garage. (Sure, hangar rash happens at the airport too, but if you have a dedicated t-hangar -- about $200 a month where I live -- there's much less in-and-out and juggling of vehicles, so the opportunities for damage are reduced.)

Bottom line: sure, get a folding wing if you can, but don't completely rule out renting hangar space on the airport (with a folding wing, you can probably share t-hangar space with someone, cutting costs considerably).

[NismoRR]

I'm in a similar position except that I just recently became a SP in July. I'm DYING to own a plane, or more precisely, become a partner in an LSA. I rent a SkyCatcher for $125/hr. It's been down for a month with a "door/latch" issue and not being able to fly for the last few weeks is killing me. I'd rather make a large initial outlay and make the hourly cost cheaper.

I'm looking for a high wing. Paul, you'll love this. There's an '05 Evektor partnership on AOPA about 50 miles away with 3 guys that are looking to expand to 5. $4,900 down and $218-268/month for fixed costs. You just pay for gas when you fly. This would be perfect if it was closer and had a high wing. If this plane was at my home field, I'd consider it. But this is the type of situation I'm looking for.

I've done a little math and figure with a three person partnership, $400/mo each gets you 5 hours of flight time, hangar and insurance, and putting about $250 away each month for maintenance/annuals. Additional hours at cost of fuel. Cost of the plane is additional. I'd be very willing to put up $25-35K with at least two others. I really don't look at it as how many hours to break even owning vs renting. I look at it first and foremost, FREEDOM. Secondly, I can currently rent and pay $375 for three hours. With a partnership, I can fly double this amount, six hours for ~$425. That's what I find most attractive.

[bob.s]

As far as the Kitfox I have been looking at them myself. I am going to go check out a guy’s plane he is building next week. They do seem perfect for the type of flying I would like to do. I too am worried about the tailwheel but everyone assures me they can be learned. I am sure you know this but many of the Kitfoxes are trigear or can be converted. Also Zenith has the 701 that has folding wings and trigear. There are quite a few of them showing up on Barnstormers too. I would love to build a plane but I think it would be much better for me to spend that time learning how to fly and building hours. With this market you can buy a whole lot cheaper than you can build an airplane.

I knew some of the Kitfoxes and the Zenith were trigear, but just hadn't seen any of them for sale. I did not know that you could convert some of the Kitfoxes, that's something to think about.

Renting at first made sense, what if I decided flying and a/c ownership wasn't for me? I could just walk away. Also, there's a lot to the care and feeding of your own LSA. (insurance, hangar/ tie downs, complying with safety bulletins, maintenance schedules, etc.) I wouldn't have wanted to deal with all of that at the same time I was training for my pilot certificate.

That's interesting and it's an angle I hadn't considered. That might be a good route to go and more importantly it might pacify my wife!


Absolutely true. No air commuting to work. No flying it on business trips, or to professional meetings. You are only allowed to fly for sport as a SP, and rightly so -- to do otherwise will put you under time pressure, and you will be inclined to rationalize flying when it's not really safe for you to do so.

That's something I must have missed in my research. I understand the need for it though, it makes sense.

First off, there are several tricycle-gear LSAs with folding wings (kitfox even has a nosewheel version in kit form). Avoiding hangar rent can be appealing, but trailering the plane to the airport every time you want to fly it may be false economy. And, I've known too many planes get damaged when they were stored in someone's barn or garage. (Sure, hangar rash happens at the airport too, but if you have a dedicated t-hangar -- about $200 a month where I live -- there's much less in-and-out and juggling of vehicles, so the opportunities for damage are reduced.)

Bottom line: sure, get a folding wing if you can, but don't completely rule out renting hangar space on the airport (with a folding wing, you can probably share t-hangar space with someone, cutting costs considerably).


That's a valuable piece of info, I had pretty much totally ruled out a hangar spot just for cost alone. I didn't factor in the odds of damage from trailering so much, or the racoons that like to nest in the barn.

Still have the question about insurance though. Is insurance on a taildragger that much more that a trike gear? How many hours training am I looking at to get TD certified?

I really appreciate all the input, they're helping me look at things in a different light.

[drseti]

Is insurance on a taildragger that much more that a trike gear?

For a student pilot (or a flight school aircraft flown by students), a conventional gear can cost twice as much to insure as a tricycle gear would. Once you're licensed and have some hours in taildraggers, the rate comes down pretty substantially, and after several hundred hours there should be no difference to speak of.

How many hours training am I looking at to get TD certified?

If you transition to conventional gear after getting licensed in a tricycle, you're probably talking about ten hours of dual. Make sure you find an instructor who flies primarily taildraggers, as there are instructors out there who have only slightly more experience in them than you do, and are instructing just to get the student to pay for their tailwheel hours!

BTW, even though I use a tricycle gear primary trainer (mostly because of insurance costs), I teach in it as though it were a taildragger. My students have to land it on the mains, nosewheel high, keep working the rudders, doing the traditional taildragger dance with their feet, and keep increasing back pressure on the stick as the plane slows down, to keep the nosewheel off the ground (just as though they were trying to keep a tailwheel planted). Once the stick is all the way back in their gut, they have to keep it there until they're stopped and chocked (especially after the nosewheel comes down, so they don't get in the habit of relaxing when that happens). With that kind of primary training (which you too can get, if you train in a tricycle gear), the transition to tailwheel is much easier.

[Jack Tyler]

Bob:

Helpful, informative posts so far. Here are a few more thoughts for ou to mull:
-- we did it both ways, in that I rented before getting my PPL and then we (me, wife, son) flew a variety of other a/c to see what we thought abut them. Reading pireps just isn't the same. So in that sense, we 'trained first, bought second'. However, both my wife and son had to 'accept' the new-to-us family a/c as their training airplane (it made student flying less expensive than renting but it also meant they had to learn in a bigger and a bit more complex a/c). And similarly, I had to accept it as an IFR trainer altho' it's rep was that this wasn't a good idea. (Bad poop BTW - the AA5 was a delight to fly on instruments). In balance, training first, then sampling, and then buying represents less risk, a more knowledgeable 'buy' but at some add'l expense.
-- I've seen the 'tipping point' Paul mentions (100 hrs/year) in other discussions. The problem with it is that - assuming you take to flying - you will likely fly more (or much more) when owning your own plane (as you suspected) than if renting, and so the renter is unlikely to find a validation to buy on any spread sheet of his/her flying hours vs. costs. There's also the serendipitous flying you will do (but otherwise will not) when it just so happens a great day of weather appears in the middle of winter (or you can get out of work an hour early, or a friend drops by you haven't seen in a while, or the flight plan calls for short flights but an overnight but the FBO needs the plane or wants to charge too many 'minimum flight hours' and so forth).
-- AOPA has an 'a/c ownership' section that offers an excellent Excel spreadsheet template on ownership costs, including purchasing, fixed costs, and so forth. It would be helpful to you at whatever point you decide to begin shopping...or more likely, when you decide to begin 'financial forecasting' in preparation for buying. <s> In fact, here are a series of tools, tutorials and other related resources that is just one pass on a/c ownership among many at AOPA's website (if not a member, student membership is free at aopa.org):
http://www.aopa.org/members/pic/ownership/
-- For the sake of fostering some additional consideration by you on folding wings & hangar sharing, I'd point out that some (most? I'm thinking so...) airports offer a mix of hangar sizes, and due to the vagaries of waiting lists, the sizes of hangared a/c don't always (if ever) end up being perfectly aligned with their assigned hangars. I recently visited a condo hangar complex where a tank-tipped Bonanza's hangar had room for an RV, and where an RV's hangar had room for two rather than only one. Also, keep in mind that there are 'removable' wing LSA's - http://vansaircraft.com/public/rv-12int.htm - as well as folding wing a/c that are available in the used marketplace.
-- While now may not be the time, don't overlook co-ownership as a means to own and fly your own plane. Very few GA a/c are used even 100 hrs in a year, so scheduling conflicts are very rare and easily managed. And multiple owners means cleaning/waxing, oil changes and certainly the financially fueling of the a/c become far less burdensome. There are pitfalls...but it's a great way to make flying affordable, and for most of us 'affordable flying' equates to 'more flying'. (As it happens, AOPA also has a whole website package on how to 'do' this effectively).

Having said all that, IMO what makes the biggest single impact on one's experience as a pilot - how rich and varied and interesting and also educational it is - is whether you own (or share in the ownership) of your own plane. Tuck that ownership notion in your back pocket and hold onto it.

Good luck to you!

[shasta]

, I have no doubt you have the mechanical skills to handle the maintenance, but do you (or will you) have the proper FAA Aviation Maintenance Technician certificate? The repairman certificate that comes with a homebuilt is only issued to the original builder, and is not transferable. To do your own maintenance and inspections, you really need to take the three-week course at Rainbow Aviation that Cogito mentioned. It's a fantastic course, and gets you the required certificate, but it ain't cheap. For me, the total cost of that course (including airfare, car rental, hotel, meals, tuition, books, and incidentals) ran about $7000. If having the LSRM-A rating saves you $500 per annual inspection, you need to own a plane for 14 years to break even!

Now I may be wrong here but I thought if you took the 16 hour inspection course you could do your own annuals on experimental LSA's that you owned. That was my plan also. I live fairly close to Rainbow Aviation so costs would be minimal. Last I looked I thought the 16 hour course was around $300. I know I would not be able to do the annual on certified type airplanes used at most flight schools, most likely I would not be buyig that type anyway.

[drseti]

Now I may be wrong here but I thought if you took the 16 hour inspection course you could do your own annuals on experimental LSA's that you owned.

As I understand the FARs, if you own the aircraft, and its airworthiness certificate specifically says Experimental Light Sport, then yes, you can do your own condition inspections with the LSRI rating (16 hour course). Someone with an LSRM (the 3-week course) can also inspect an E-LSA, of course. However, if the airworthiness certificate says Experimental Amateur Built (E-AB), then even if it is Sport Pilot eligible, the inspection must be done by either an A&P with inspection authorization (IA), or the holder of a Repairman Certificate, provided he or she is the original builder. Not even an LSRM (3 week course) qualifies to do annuals on a Sport Pilot eligible E-AB, if memory serves. So, be careful here -- a lot of KitFoxes, for example, are licensed as E-AB, not E-LSA.

[shasta]

Good to know. I guess I never thought of it that way but you are correct many of the kitfox's are registered AB as many were built before the LSA rule came into being. Thanks I will have to look into it more but I am sure you are correct.

[rsteele]

If the plane is an E-AB (Experimental Amateur Built) then there is no training or certification whatsoever required to work on it. This is something to keep in mind if you are shopping for a used one. For the "annual", properly called condition inspection on an E-AB, only the holder of the repairman certificate for that particular plane, or an A&P (IA not required) can do it. Normally the repairman certificate is issued to one person, the original builder, and is never transferable. So, while one of the LSA courses would be value from a knowledge standpoint, but is totally meaningless from a regulatory standpoint for an E-AB. (Not at all the same as an E-LSA!)

If you are interested in a E-AB, the Barnstormers.com is the place to look.

Echoing the advice above, get a few lessons under your belt before purchasing a plane. It won't take long to determine if you like to fly, and are capable of it. Owning your plane while learning is probably going to save you some money. You will fly more often, because your costs are mostly fixed and you won't feel the need to take a loan for every lesson. Flying more often will cause you to learn faster, speeding up the whole process.


Ron

[drseti]

If the plane is an E-AB (Experimental Amateur Built) then there is no training or certification whatsoever required to work on it.

Correct. Major repair, minor repair, alteration, and preventive maintenance on an E-AB can be performed by a trained monkey (or, an untrained one, for that matter). But to remain Sport Pilot eligible, no modification may take it out of LSA performance limitations. This is elaborated on another thread:
http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=2214