Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
Moderator: drseti
Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
Interesting topic came up in another forum concerning the need to update the W&B of an airplane if the wheel pants are removed. Unanimous opinion of the A&Ps/IAs was that the plane was technically not airworthy if the W&B is not updated. This came up as a few folks were contemplating removing their wheel pants when going to AirVenture out of concern of damaging them when off the hard surface, especially if it's rained recently. Thoughts?
dave
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Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
Billable Hours, enough said...
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
I think your weight and balance needs to be correct to be legal.
Retired from flying.
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
I'm not sure about that. IIRC W&B info needs to be in the airplane, but it doesn't have to be completely correct for the current flight. As long as you are in the W&B envelope you are legal, even if it's not written down. You might be asked to calculate it on on ramp check before being allowed to carry on, but I don't think you have to have it all written down and correct.TimTaylor wrote:I think your weight and balance needs to be correct to be legal.
The W&B sheet kept in the airplane is generally the airplane info for the most common baseline condition of flight. You can take a radio out of the airplane and still fly it if you calculate the W&B to be legal, but you don't have to have a corrected sheet for the change. I don't see how wheel pants are different.
I'm 100% sure I will be vocally corrected if I'm wrong.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
I'm going to disagree but I'm not certain. If the weight and balance paperwork is not current and correct, how do you know the airplane is within allowable limits and safe to fly? A pilot can't accurately calculate his flight weight and balance if the aircraft documentation is incorrect or out of date.
Retired from flying.
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
The weight and balance sheet for the airplane should reflect the current equipment installed on the airplane. If you remove wheel pants it should be updated. When they are reinstalled it should be updated again. I have seen airplanes with 2 weight and balance sheets one for pants and one without.
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
If you temporarily remove a radio to take the airplane to an avionics shop, do you do a whole new sheet? I wouldn't. I'd do a calculated W&B to make sure I'm legal, then go fly.3Dreaming wrote:The weight and balance sheet for the airplane should reflect the current equipment installed on the airplane. If you remove wheel pants it should be updated. When they are reinstalled it should be updated again. I have seen airplanes with 2 weight and balance sheets one for pants and one without.
AFAIK there is no legal requirement to have a true and correct W&B sheet for the current config in the airplane. This link agrees with me:
https://pilotworkshop.com/tips/airplane_weight_balance/
"FAR 91.9 prohibits operation of the aircraft without complying with the operating limitations. It doesn’t require that you do a weight and balance for each flight. "
"However, FAR 91.103 (preflight action) says that you must have reliable information regarding performance. Therefore, if you have a heavily loaded aircraft and are ramp checked, you might be required to demonstrate that the aircraft is within weight and balance and capable of safe operation off of available runway considering existing conditions."
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
If the aircraft weight and balance documentation is not current and correct, it is impossible to do a weight and balance calculation for your flight. You have no possible way to know what may or may not have been added or removed from the aircraft. You have no way to know if the airplane is even within allowable limits even as it sits on the ramp. If you go for a flight test without a current and correct documentation, the examiner will not fly with you.
Retired from flying.
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
We're talking about day to day operations, not a checkride. I own my airplane, I know exactly what's on it. If I take off my wheel pants, I don't have to put a whole new sheet in the airplane because I know it's been done, I have calc'ed the weight, and nobody else will be flying it. Of course if you have a flight school airplane and a dozen people flying it, keeping a correct W&B sheet in the airplane is a best practice.TimTaylor wrote:If the aircraft weight and balance documentation is not current and correct, it is impossible to do a weight and balance calculation for your flight. You have no possible way to know what may or may not have been added or removed from the aircraft. You have no way to know if the airplane is even within allowable limits even as it sits on the ramp. If you go for a flight test without a current and correct documentation, the examiner will not fly with you.
But the question wasn't "what's a good idea", it was "what is required". And no, you are not required to do a new weight and balance sheet if you remove your wheel pants. As far as I can tell, you're not even required to recalc your W&B. But you will probably have to demonstrate the airplane is within W&B limits if the FAA comes knocking, and there might be consequences if it's not.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
Andy -- don't know if this is the case legally. I think it comes down to who can document/determine the new W&B. I would guess for a certified (Part 23 and before and S-LSA) that an appropriately licensed mechanic would be the only one who could do so. Experimentals could probably be done by the owner so you'd be OK?But the question wasn't "what's a good idea", it was "what is required". And no, you are not required to do a new weight and balance sheet if you remove your wheel pants. As far as I can tell, you're not even required to recalc your W&B. But you will probably have to demonstrate the airplane is within W&B limits if the FAA comes knocking, and there might be consequences if it's not.
dave
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
The pilot can calculate the W&B, you don't need a mechanic to do it as long as you have all the weights and arms. The Mechanic is not responsible for accurate & safe W&B info, the pilot is. If you are ramp checked "the mechanic did the W&B" is not a defense to incorrect information. Even if your mechanic does a W&B, I'd check his work.dstclair wrote:Andy -- don't know if this is the case legally. I think it comes down to who can document/determine the new W&B. I would guess for a certified (Part 23 and before and S-LSA) that an appropriately licensed mechanic would be the only one who could do so. Experimentals could probably be done by the owner so you'd be OK?But the question wasn't "what's a good idea", it was "what is required". And no, you are not required to do a new weight and balance sheet if you remove your wheel pants. As far as I can tell, you're not even required to recalc your W&B. But you will probably have to demonstrate the airplane is within W&B limits if the FAA comes knocking, and there might be consequences if it's not.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
I don't believe this is correct.MrMorden wrote:We're talking about day to day operations, not a checkride. I own my airplane, I know exactly what's on it. If I take off my wheel pants, I don't have to put a whole new sheet in the airplane because I know it's been done, I have calc'ed the weight, and nobody else will be flying it. Of course if you have a flight school airplane and a dozen people flying it, keeping a correct W&B sheet in the airplane is a best practice.TimTaylor wrote:If the aircraft weight and balance documentation is not current and correct, it is impossible to do a weight and balance calculation for your flight. You have no possible way to know what may or may not have been added or removed from the aircraft. You have no way to know if the airplane is even within allowable limits even as it sits on the ramp. If you go for a flight test without a current and correct documentation, the examiner will not fly with you.
But the question wasn't "what's a good idea", it was "what is required". And no, you are not required to do a new weight and balance sheet if you remove your wheel pants. As far as I can tell, you're not even required to recalc your W&B. But you will probably have to demonstrate the airplane is within W&B limits if the FAA comes knocking, and there might be consequences if it's not.
Retired from flying.
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
Fair enough, but belief is not an argument. I provided a link to support my claims, do you have something to demonstrate where I'm wrong? 91.9 & 91.103 say you have to have "reliable information regarding perfomance" and that you have to abide by the W&B limitations of the aircraft. There is no mention of what form that information must take, or that a specific document must be present.TimTaylor wrote: I don't believe this is correct.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
Question: Do you print out a new W&B sheet for the airplane every time you add or burn fuel? If an accurate W&B is a required document, why not? Because it's not convenient and the weight and CG can be calculated from the W&B sheet if needed? Oh.
What is the difference between fuel and wheel pants, from a W&B perspective? Pretty sure both have mass.
What is the difference between fuel and wheel pants, from a W&B perspective? Pretty sure both have mass.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
A typical W&B has a published 'arm' for variable items such as fuel, pilot, passengers, baggage, etc but may not have an arm for other equipment. The Sting's typical W&B worksheet does publish arms for the mains, nose wheel and instruments so it would be a simple exercise for calculation provided changes were made at those arms. I don't know if this is straight-forward for other LSAs. Now then just because its possible for the owner/pilot to do so, does it make it compliant to the regs? That's my Q to those who have LSRM, A&P or IA ratings.
dave