Without visual reference to the surface

The Federal Aviation Regulations (also know as FAR's). This is the Bible of aviation, the rules under which we operate. This is where you'll find everything you want to know about pilots and airplanes in the United States. Ask questions. Get answers.

Moderator: drseti

User avatar
bitten192
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:09 pm
Location: RICHLAND WA USA

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Post by bitten192 »

I flew to Seattle from Eastern Washington a couple of weeks ago and, as usual, I was on top at 10,000' over the pass, on flight follow and could see Mt Rainier poking up out of the clouds off my wing. When it broke up on the west side, I descended VFR to below the clouds. I always keep a road under me per my GPS and am confident I could descend through the clouds in an emergency. I think that is OK.
Ernie
CFI, LSRM-A
User avatar
MrMorden
Posts: 2184
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Athens, GA

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Post by MrMorden »

bitten192 wrote:I flew to Seattle from Eastern Washington a couple of weeks ago and, as usual, I was on top at 10,000' over the pass, on flight follow and could see Mt Rainier poking up out of the clouds off my wing. When it broke up on the west side, I descended VFR to below the clouds. I always keep a road under me per my GPS and am confident I could descend through the clouds in an emergency. I think that is OK.
Are you a Sport Pilot or Private Pilot? Oh nevermind, I just saw "CFI" in your signature.

You are clearly more than qualified to make a flight like that. As a SP, I'd be very wary of it.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
User avatar
CharlieTango
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am
Location: Mammoth Lakes, California

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Post by CharlieTango »

In the west flying on top was a non event years ago, what changed? It seems far safer today with weather and SV and terrain in the cockpit.

On my leg from Alturas to Portland I can easily be on top for over an hour.
User avatar
drseti
Posts: 7227
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Post by drseti »

CharlieTango wrote:In the west flying on top was a non event years ago, what changed?
What changed is that when a healthy and experienced pilot decides to let his or her (totally useless) third class medical certificate lapse, he or she obviously loses basic flying skills!
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
Merlinspop
Posts: 999
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:48 pm
Location: WV Eastern Panhandle

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Post by Merlinspop »

drseti wrote:
CharlieTango wrote:In the west flying on top was a non event years ago, what changed?
What changed is that when a healthy and experienced pilot decides to let his or her (totally useless) third class medical certificate lapse, he or she obviously loses basic flying skills!
...and becomes a walking (flying) timebomb, far more liable to keel over any second than when they carried a valid medical in their wallet.
- Bruce
Wm.Ince
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:27 pm
Location: Clearwater, FL

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Post by Wm.Ince »

Merlinspop wrote:"...and becomes a walking (flying) timebomb, far more liable to keel over any second than when they carried a valid medical in their wallet." . . .
And what is the data reference to back your assertion up?
3Dreaming
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:13 pm
Location: noble, IL USA

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Post by 3Dreaming »

Wm.Ince wrote:
Merlinspop wrote:"...and becomes a walking (flying) timebomb, far more liable to keel over any second than when they carried a valid medical in their wallet." . . .
And what is the data reference to back your assertion up?
I think it was more tongue in cheek humor, at least I hope it was.
User avatar
FastEddieB
Posts: 2880
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:33 pm
Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Post by FastEddieB »

Wm.Ince wrote:
Merlinspop wrote:"...and becomes a walking (flying) timebomb, far more liable to keel over any second than when they carried a valid medical in their wallet." . . .
And what is the data reference to back your assertion up?
Sarchasm - the intellectual gap between the person who makes a sarcastic joke and those who don't get it. :evil:
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
CFI, CFII, CFIME
[email protected]
Merlinspop
Posts: 999
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:48 pm
Location: WV Eastern Panhandle

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Post by Merlinspop »

FastEddieB wrote:
Wm.Ince wrote:
Merlinspop wrote:"...and becomes a walking (flying) timebomb, far more liable to keel over any second than when they carried a valid medical in their wallet." . . .
And what is the data reference to back your assertion up?
Sarchasm - the intellectual gap between the person who makes a sarcastic joke and those who don't get it. :evil:
Being the holder of a long-expired medical, my tongue was solidly planted in my cheek.
- Bruce
rgstubbsjr
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 5:54 pm
Location: GBR - Great Barrington, MA

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Post by rgstubbsjr »

If you can see the ground through the holes in the cloud cover you can fly.
User avatar
FastEddieB
Posts: 2880
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:33 pm
Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Post by FastEddieB »

rgstubbsjr wrote:If you can see the ground through the holes in the cloud cover you can fly.
That is my take as well.

Seems almost intentionally vague. It would have been easy to make it a prohibition to fly over a broken layer (though that would have sucked). Or even an overcast layer (which the existing language hints at, but does not say).
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
CFI, CFII, CFIME
[email protected]
User avatar
bitten192
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:09 pm
Location: RICHLAND WA USA

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Post by bitten192 »

rgstubbsjr wrote:If you can see the ground through the holes in the cloud cover you can fly.
The hole in the cloud was at 9000' where Mt Rainier was poking out. I could see ground on Mt Rainier that was 9000' above sea level all the way to the top of the mountain at 14,400'. :D
Ernie
CFI, LSRM-A
User avatar
FastEddieB
Posts: 2880
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:33 pm
Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Post by FastEddieB »

Let's not be silly...

That would be visual reference to a surface, not visual reference to the surface

Clear? :roll:
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
CFI, CFII, CFIME
[email protected]
User avatar
CharlieTango
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am
Location: Mammoth Lakes, California

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Post by CharlieTango »

FastEddieB wrote:Let's not be silly...

That would be visual reference to a surface, not visual reference to the surface

Clear? :roll:
Are you saying that the visible surface has to be directly below you? If not how far from directly below?

Terrain that rises above the layer does much to keep you oriented. There are countless valleys bordered by high terrain in the west, some are small and some are 100 miles across. Are you saying they are all off limits to cross? Can I fly over fog?

Image
User avatar
dstclair
Posts: 1092
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:23 am
Location: Allen, TX

Re: Without visual reference to the surface

Post by dstclair »

I would say the conditions have to be such that the view of the surface allows:
the visual references must be adequate for the pilot to assess horizontal flight path and vertical flight path."
Those conditions seem to fit within the ICAO definition.
dave
Post Reply