Upset recovery training

[fatsportpilot]

I'm thinking about enrolling in an upset recovery and spin recovery training course to improve my skills. Does anyone have any advice for doing this or recommendations for courses in or near Northern California? If I book a course with a Pitts Special or a Super Decathlon will the skills transfer to an LSA?

[Wm.Ince]

I'm thinking about enrolling in an upset recovery and spin recovery training course to improve my skills. Does anyone have any advice for doing this or recommendations for courses in or near Northern California? If I book a course with a Pitts Special or a Super Decathlon will the skills transfer to an LSA?

Rest assured . . . those skills will transfer to anything with a stiff wing.

[fatsportpilot]

Wonderful! Any opinion on Citabrias vs Decathlon/Super Decathlons? Being instructed in the Citabria is a lot cheaper (up to $50 an hour cheaper!). This is the business I am looking at https://www.cpaviation.com/upset-preven ... aerobatics

[JimParker256]

For URT (upset recovery training), it will make zero difference to you. The Citabria has an asymmetric wing that provides slightly higher lift, whereas the Decathlon has s symmetric wing that gives it better inverted performance. But that really only matters if you're trying to to competitive aerobatics, where inverted performance is more important. For URT, you'd never notice any difference.

(I owned a '65 Citabria for several years.)

[drseti]

If memory serves, Fast Eddie used to own and instruct in a Citabria. Perhaps he would care to chime in here.

[FastEddieB]

If memory serves, Fast Eddie used to own and instruct in a Citabria. Perhaps he would care to chime in here.

Thanks for thinking of me.

A Pitts or an Extra or even “just” a Decathlon would all be a hoot.

But for more “real world” similarities to our planes, I think a Citabria or a 150/152 Aerobat would be fine.

I taught a very basic aerobatics course: mainly loops, aileron rolls, snap rolls, hammerheads, spins and combining those into sequences. My Citabrias did not have inverted systems, so maneuvers were somewhat limited.

One observation/caveat: The vast majority of pilots, on finding them inverted, will reflexively pull back on the stick, doing a “Split-S” out of the inverted position. At low altitude it can be a fatal mistake. There’s at least one Cirrus fatal in FL where it appears a botched aileron roll led to a Split-S into the ground. The caveat is that while upset training is undoubtedly a plus, without recurrent training a surprised pilot finding themselves inverted will still probably pull back on the stick - continuing the roll in the direction of the upset is very unnatural and needs a lot of repetition to become a habit.

[fatsportpilot]

I've played enough aviation video games that I no longer reflexively pull back when I'm inverted, at least when I'm sitting still in a comfortable chair in front of a screen in 1G. I don't know how I'd react in the real world but at least I have some muscle memory to help me.

Also is it even possible to "find yourself inverted" in our planes without intentionally trying to do aerobatics? If I over bank and don't notice I'll find myself pointing at the ground, not straight and level inverted.

[3Dreaming]

Also is it even possible to "find yourself inverted" in our planes without intentionally trying to do aerobatics?

Yes, wake turbulence can roll you upside down in the blink of an eye.

Duane Cole used to tell of a time landing at Fort Wayne, IN in IIRC a Piper Comanche, landing behind a Boeing 707. He got into the wake, and it rolled him upside down. He said because of his aerobatic experience that he instead of trying to fight the roll, he went with it and rolled the airplane back right side up.

Frank Sanders used to do a demo in hiss Sea Fury at Oshkosh with another fellow with a Swift. The guy in the Swift would purposely fly into the wake. Now the Sea Fury is a fairly big heavy airplane, but nothing like the larger passenger jets. It had enough vortices to roll that Swift upside down.

[fatsportpilot]

I don't have much experience with that in my little non-towered airport. It must be a lot riskier when you're right behind a large jet!

[FastEddieB]

I don't have much experience with that in my little non-towered airport. It must be a lot riskier when you're right behind a large jet!

Wingtip vortices tend to sink. Flying a steep approach above the jet’s path and landing beyond their touchdown point will avoid most of the hazard on approach.

[JimParker256]

I don't have much experience with that in my little non-towered airport. It must be a lot riskier when you're right behind a large jet!

Wingtip vortices tend to sink. Flying a steep approach above the jet’s path and landing beyond their touchdown point will avoid most of the hazard on approach.

The far greater issue (to me, at least) is taking off after a jet departs. My home airport (KTKI – 7002' runway) is home to several Gulfstreams and other large bizjets, and we get a LOT of traffic from a bunch of the local flight schools, because our Tower crew is fantastic and can handle a steady mix of VFR and IFR training (multiple types of precision and non-precision approaches) and keep it all sorted out. We're just on the fringe of the DFW Bravo airspace, and folks come here from all over to knock out their three approaches to remain current...

As a result, we're often lined up 2-3 deep waiting for takeoff clearance. When there's a gap, Tower will launch several of us, back-to-back, requesting "expedited takeoffs." Usually not a problem with other light GA traffic... But one day I was lined up behind a Gulfstream IV. He was given clearance for "expedited takeoff" and as soon as he started rolling, I received clearance to takeoff as well, with a request to "expedite"... As I taxied onto the runway, I watched that jet lift off at mid-field and climb quite steeply... I suddenly realized that the G-IV's climb gradient FAR exceeded the meager one I could muster from my lowly 100 hp Citabria 7ECA (maybe 350 fpm climb at 70 mph on a cool day, which it definitely was NOT!). I realized there was no way I'd arrive at a safe altitude to begin my crosswind turn without potentially flying through the G-IV's vortices...

I had to respond "unable to expedite due to potential vortices." That resulted in cancellation of my takeoff clearance, and the three airplanes stacked up on final to be told to go around. I could sense that the Tower guy was none too happy with me. I called the Tower chief later to discuss it, and he agreed I had done the right thing, and that the Tower guy should probably have had me "hold short" instead of asking for an expedited takeoff in that situation. But we agreed that the best course of action going forward would be for me to make my "go / no-go" decision before moving beyond the hold-short line next time. And the tower crew got a reminder that climb gradient makes a difference when separating departing aircraft in these situations.

Nowadays, I'm flying a RANS S-6ES (Rotax 912ULS) that climbs at 1000+ fpm at 65 mph. My climb gradient is such that I get to a comfortable altitude to turn crosswind well before the jet's rotation point, so it's far less of an issue. Have I mentioned how much I LOVE this airplane?

But for anyone who wonders if upset recovery training is worth it, take a look at the Kitplanes article "Mr. Bearhawk's Wild Ride" by Russ Erb (Sept 9, 2020). (https://www.kitplanes.com/mr-bearhawks-wild-ride It's a great article from an Air Force test pilot school graduate about his personal experience with an "upset"... It may require a subscription to access, but it's well worth the read. (PS - I find Kitplanes to be the single best magazine published about aviation for LSA/Experimentals here in the US. Well worth spending the $$ to subscribe!)

[fatsportpilot]

The kitplanes link doesn't require a subscription. I can view it with no account.

[malexander]

I've played enough aviation video games that I no longer reflexively pull back when I'm inverted, at least when I'm sitting still in a comfortable chair in front of a screen in 1G. I don't know how I'd react in the real world but at least I have some muscle memory to help me.

Also is it even possible to "find yourself inverted" in our planes without intentionally trying to do aerobatics? If I over bank and don't notice I'll find myself pointing at the ground, not straight and level inverted.

I've learned this from flying RC airplanes since 1974. lol

[drseti]

This thread title is reminiscent of what I had to go through 30 years ago, after my divorce. Only we called it therapy.

[fatsportpilot]

PIREP time!

I completed my upset recovery training at CP Aviation in SoCal with CFI Mark King. We did two lessons a day ranging from 40 minutes to an hour for each with a nice long preflight briefing for each one so we got through all three training modules (and each module is 4 lessons) in under a week. We flew in Citabrias and Decathlons. Super Decathlon was used for the last few lessons which was introduction to aerobatics.

We didn't do a lot of pattern work because almost all of our time was spent in a dedicated aerobatic area so I never really got used to landing a taildragger, but I did get better at taxiing without a steerable wheel over the week. When I started I still had a nosewheel mindset so I'd drift off the line to the left even though I was full right rudder, but opening the throttle just a little fixed that. By the end of the week I could taxi straight enough, but I'm glad to be back home and flying an airplane with the little wheel in front of me! I wish we got to spend a little more time doing landings but that would have taken away from the upset recovery training.

Module I (days 1 and 2):

The first lesson was just orientation with me getting used to the characteristics of the Citabria so we did simple things like dutch rolls, steep turns, and stalls. The second lesson was spins. Recovering from simple spins was a lot easier than I expected. The spins weren't particularly disorienting and even the multi-turn spins were easy enough and recovery was quick. It was the aggravated spins in the 3rd and 4th lessons that caused most of my disorientation due to the G forces but I could usually recover at a specific heading (+/- 45 degrees at worst) after a little practice. For the first few days I thought that pulling a mere 2G was my limit and I would be getting very uncomfortable very quickly. But after a few days I started to get used to 2G, just in time to do spirals where I was experiencing a sustained 2 to 2.5G. The takeaway for all of this was just how important unloading the wings is when recovering from both spins and spirals.

Module II (days 3 and 4):

We reviewed spins and performed some other maneuvers such as steep turns, aerobatic turns, and rolls (mostly aileron rolls). The rolls themselves were pretty easy to do especially because the Decathlon has symmetric airfoils and I learned them pretty quickly. It became almost routine: accelerate to 140 mph, pitch up to prepare, then execute the roll. But it was all supposed to be a building block for recovering from severe overbanks and wake turbulence so it got a lot harder when I had to make a split second decision to either simply right the plane back up or continue through the partially completed roll.

On the second day of module II we did lots of slips and slipping turns. I was already very comfortable with slips because I've done them so much in a SportStar (I fly a tight pattern in case of engine trouble so I sometimes come in too high but never too low) but this is the first time I practiced slips in a sharp turn, because I had always waited until I was straight and level before starting a slip and exited a slip to begin a turn. Slipping turns were a lot easier than I expected but stall buffeting didn't always happen in that configuration.

We also practiced a full pattern using no controls but trim, rudder, and throttle. This was one of the most enlightening parts of the training because I got to do not just a landing, but a full pattern without touching the stick at all. Before this I thought that a mechanical breakage of controls to the elevator and ailerons together meant certain death.

Module III (days 5 and 6):

These 4 lessons were introductory aerobatics. We did loops, several kinds of rolls, Immelmans, hammerheads, Cuban eights, and humpty bumps. The Cuban eights we did near the end of the lessons so that was when I was most fatigued and exhausted so I never got them down well enough. For this module I was glad I got used to G forces earlier because this time we were pulling 3.5G and it felt subjectively the same way a 2G turn felt in the first lesson. The final lesson was the least comfortable because it had a lot of inverted flight and we did an inverted spin (the G meter told me it was -1.8G or something after the fact). Right as the stall broke into a spin I began to grey out and might have even blacked out for a second.

All in all this was expensive, exhausting and intense but SO very worth it. But this is only the beginning. I'll plan for recurrent training so I can keep these skills fresh so they won't fail me if I find myself needing to use them for real.