Allegro and tailwind

[zaitcev]

I noticed today that an Allegro in a video is placarded "TAIL WIND LANDING PROHIBITED" (in uppercase). The cross-wind limitation is also very low, only 12 mph. I know we have Allegro owners on forums. Could someone explain what's up with these limitations?

One of the airports where I sometimes need to be is one-way and you always get some tailwind there, either on landing or takeoff, depending on the wind direction.

Also, as far as I understand, placards for maximum cross-wind are not to be violated, whereas it's legal to land with a crosswind component larger than the demonstrated cross-wind value. I think Allegro cuts pretty badly into airplane utility by placarding it thus, at least for my mission.

[drseti]

Pete,
As I understand it, in the SLSA, ELSA, and E-AB universe (that is, where a Special Airworthiness Certificate is involved), what's regulatory is not so much the placards as it is the Operating Limitations sheet issued by the DAR or FSDO. So, if that says no downwind landings, no spins, no night operations, no IFR, or whatever, that pretty well governs.

[ka7eej]

Pete,
Not sure what you saw on who's airplane. I don't think the manufacture put that notice in the airplane, at least there is not one in my Allegro 2000.. This is what is in my 2006 Allegro 2000 POH

Limiting Wind Speeds
Maximum Demonstrated Headwind Speed 23 mph
(i.e. against the direction of the flight)
Maximum Demonstrated Crosswind Speed 12 mph
(i.e. perpendicular to the direction of the flight)
Do not try to take off or land with the tail-on wind except for emergencies!

I beleive that using a runway that can only be used in one direction might be an emergency.. I don't know. I have done landings in training up to 5-6 MPH tail and 1/4 tail winds with little to no effect. So whats your point??? How much tail wind do you want to land in?? If its a bunch why are you going there?? So sorry you feel you need to post this statement "I think Allegro cuts pretty badly into airplane utility by placarding it thus, at least for my mission." Why don't you come over to Taylor Az (not too far away from you). You can see and fly in my Allegro 2000 and be armed with some first hand information....

Fly safe now!!

Brian

[FrankR]

I know we have Allegro owners on forums. Could someone explain what's up with these limitations?

There is no such placard on the Allegro that I fly.

As referenced, the Allegro POH lists a 12mph crosswind component limitation. This translated to 10kts.

It was explained to me that this limit is the result of rudder limits. They only travel so far for the slip.

As insurance runs the world, I asked an insurance guy if the benefit gets paid if a pilot takes off with crosswinds reported higher than the recommendation in the POH. He indicated that the benefits get paid.

[drseti]

There is no such placard on the Allegro that I fly.

The problem with placards is that any owner, flight school, or FBO with a label maker can create any kind of placard they want, and just stick it on the panel. This is why it is the Operating Limitations sheet that is of interest. For an ELSA, SLSA, or E-AB, this is required to be carried in the aircraft, along with the Special Airworthiness Certificate. Check it to see what the true limitations are. If you don't find it there, don't rent the plane!

[zaitcev]

I do not plan to be based at Los Alamos (LAM), a one-way airport. I was there twice and one time I landed with tailwind, the other time I took off with a tailwind component. They have a long runway to make it safe enough for the resident private aircraft. I went there to visit a gentleman with a Sonex (LSA compliant).

A bigger concern for me is a popular satellite airport where a few members of my ultralight club keep their airplanes, Belen Alexander (E80). I considered a hangar partnership there. That place has a significant cross-wind very often, although certainly I can choose the direction so there's no tailwind component.

Another local airport with common crosswinds is Angel Fire (AXX). That one sometimes has cross-winds exceeding 30 knots. Of course I have no death wish to fly when it gusts 47 knots. A couple of weeks ago a guy in Mooney M20E took off and augered it in, killing all 4 onboard. However, even a quiet day at Angel Fire offers a crosswind close or exceeding 10 knots.

I have to say that I was mostly taken by surprise than anything, because the limits are unusually low, and the prohibition of tailwind is most irregular.

Brian has an Allegro 2000 model, so I was wondering if these limits are relaxed in the Allegro 2007 model. I heard it was changed in significant ways.

[FrankR]

There is no such placard on the Allegro that I fly.

The problem with placards is that any owner, flight school, or FBO with a label maker can create any kind of placard they want, and just stick it on the panel. This is why it is the Operating Limitations sheet that is of interest. For an ELSA, SLSA, or E-AB, this is required to be carried in the aircraft, along with the Special Airworthiness Certificate. Check it to see what the true limitations are. If you don't find it there, don't rent the plane!

The DPE for my checkride got all hung up on a placard that read; Cruise=Flaps 0, Takeoff=Flaps 1 (15%), Landing=Flaps 2(Full flaps, 40%).

It was gusty and I chose to land with "less" flaps and this started a huge discussion. She told me that placards are as good as a POH.

[drseti]

She told me that placards are as good as a POH.

If they were put there by the manufacturer, and if they are consistent with the Operating Limitations, this is probably true. But, remember that many FBOs make their own placards. One where I used to teach had a policy of no unpaved runway operations, and stuck that on the panel. This was company policy, certainly not an aircraft limitation. (Another made up a placard that said, "if you care to smoke, please step outside." Now that's a limitation I can get behind!)

[ka7eej]

Frank,

# 2 Flaps on a (MY) Allegro 2000 is 48 degrees... I practice in calm air with that from time to time, and sometimes use it if I'm in a SHORT FIELD LANDING CONTEST!@! With most any wind I use #1 15 degree flaps. and 2500-2800 rmp. I find it much easier to land, safer, softer on the airplane and me....and most of the time I have 3500 to 7000 feet to land in... Using 48 degrees I can stop in 350-500 feet..but the angle of decent to maintain 65-70 mph is ridiculous. Sometimes have to slip to loose altitude but find that easier than diving into the airport and having to find that sweet spot in which to have to flare.. You were right to use less in gusty conditions.. The POH states this...

Maneuvering and Gust Envelope
Operation Limitations – Allegro 2000
Limiting Speeds (never to be exceeded):
Wing flaps Lever position Flaps Deflection Never Exceed Speed
Cruise position 0 -4,5 ° VNE 138 MPH
Take-off 1 15 ° VFE 68 MPH
Landing 2 48 ° VFE 68 MPH
THESE SPEEDS MAY NOT BE EXCEEDED UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES !!!


I read this as a limit on speeds and not on what flaps to use when..
Good luck and fly safe...

Brian

[jnmeade]

Does it say that in the Limitations section or somewhere else?

[FrankR]

Frank,

# 2 Flaps on a (MY) Allegro 2000 is 48 degrees... I practice in calm air with that from time to time, and sometimes use it if I'm in a SHORT FIELD LANDING CONTEST!@! With most any wind I use #1 15 degree flaps. and 2500-2800 rmp. I find it much easier to land, safer, softer on the airplane and me....and most of the time I have 3500 to 7000 feet to land in... Using 48 degrees I can stop in 350-500 feet..but the angle of decent to maintain 65-70 mph is ridiculous. Sometimes have to slip to loose altitude but find that easier than diving into the airport and having to find that sweet spot in which to have to flare.. You were right to use less in gusty conditions.. The POH states this...

Maneuvering and Gust Envelope
Operation Limitations – Allegro 2000
Limiting Speeds (never to be exceeded):
Wing flaps Lever position Flaps Deflection Never Exceed Speed
Cruise position 0 -4,5 ° VNE 138 MPH
Take-off 1 15 ° VFE 68 MPH
Landing 2 48 ° VFE 68 MPH
THESE SPEEDS MAY NOT BE EXCEEDED UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES !!!


I read this as a limit on speeds and not on what flaps to use when..
Good luck and fly safe...

Brian

Thanks Brian, you got the numbers right. I was doing it (poorly) from memory.

Does yours have the placard I referred to earlier? Flaps and their usage?

What is the MTOW of yours? 1232 or 1320? Even at 1232 the A/C has 594 for payload. 638 Empty Weight.

[ka7eej]

Frank,

NO Placard.... and My plane has listed weight of 647 lbs.... 1232 MTOW..


Brian

[FrankR]

Frank,

NO Placard.... and My plane has listed weight of 647 lbs.... 1232 MTOW..


Brian

What cool "extra stuff" do you have in it?