FAA searching hangars for fat ultralights?

[jlong16]

Maybe I missed something.

If teh FAA burglarize a hanger in the search for a fat ultralight, then YIPPY! They've found a piece of metal sitting in an enclosed space, doing nothing.

Maybe they can burglarize aircraft museums next and FIND all the illegal aircraft in their hangers, also doing nothing.

Or better yet, they can look in aircraft junkyards and "Arrest" all the parted out wrecks, sitting there and doing nothing.

Even for the govt there has to be a violation of the law.

Burglary is entering or remaining in a building for the purpose of committing a crime and I would sign a criminal complaint against any govt official for burglary in the circumstances you proposed. Then I would follow up with a LARGE civil lawsuit to make sure they learn an expensive lesson for their actions.

Law Enforcement loses their immunity when they commit a crime, even if they are doing "their job."

[owenstrawn]

Burglary is entering or remaining in a building for the purpose of committing a crime and I would sign a criminal complaint against any govt official for burglary in the circumstances you proposed. Then I would follow up with a LARGE civil lawsuit to make sure they learn an expensive lesson for their actions.

That's fine if you own the hangar, but you might want to check your lease/rental agreement if you don't. There could be a provision allowing entry by FAA or by the property owner (escorting the FAA).

[CharlieTango]

our airport seems to have the right to come in and do fire inspections

[leithalweapon]

If the FAA wants in you hanger odds are they will get in. What they would actually do once inside is unknown. They are already sending letters to some airports requesting copies of Airworthyness certificates and registrations. The airport owner stands to lose the most in that situation.

A comment was made asking what could they take away from you if your not a liscensed pilot. Ask the 15yr old kid who gets caught driving without a Drivers liscense. They can't take anything from you, but they can prevent you from obtaining a pilots liscense. The comment kind of sounds like 'it's not illegal until you get caught'. You weren't DUI until you got pulled over. Come on!

[Cub flyer]

I still don't understand what the airport owner has to do with any of this?

I own a public use airport. I don't own any fat ultralights but they land here from time to time and I have rented hangar space to them before.

Any ultralight that flies the traffic pattern and acts with some sense is welcome.

You keep mentioning the airport owner but what would the FAA do to him/her?

Why would they do anything to the airport owner?

[Cub flyer]

State of PA has sent letters to me requesting the N numbers of airplanes based here which are not registered in PA.

They are looking to collect 6% use tax from all the airplanes registered in Deleware.

Your state might be doing this and it may be what you are hearing about.

The FAA inspectors have a very definite set of rules to follow for ramp checks etc.

Here is the airport access part.

http://fsims.faa.gov/PICResults.aspx?mode=Index&cat=A

Notice also they are allowed cockpit access but only on Part 121 and 135 operations. We are part 91 and they do not have access in your airplane except what they can see through the windows. Unless you give them permission or leave the door hanging open.

If you deny access to your hangar then the last part says it will be referred to the appropriate authority. What that means I am not sure. Probably they would need a search warrant to proceed further.

The point is the rouge inspector cannot come in an hold the airport owner hostage searching hangars for fat ultralights or unregistered airplanes.

The airport owner can give permission for them to look and has the option to escort them around their buildings.

An inspector seeing a two place lightplane with no N number taxiing in is a whole different story. Or asking to perform a ramp check and finding no airworthiness paperwork. Then YOU are in trouble.

But not the owner of the airport you are standing on.

[rab23us]

Maybe I missed something.

If teh FAA burglarize a hanger in the search for a fat ultralight, then YIPPY! They've found a piece of metal sitting in an enclosed space, doing nothing.

Maybe they can burglarize aircraft museums next and FIND all the illegal aircraft in their hangers, also doing nothing.

Or better yet, they can look in aircraft junkyards and "Arrest" all the parted out wrecks, sitting there and doing nothing.

Even for the govt there has to be a violation of the law.

Burglary is entering or remaining in a building for the purpose of committing a crime and I would sign a criminal complaint against any govt official for burglary in the circumstances you proposed. Then I would follow up with a LARGE civil lawsuit to make sure they learn an expensive lesson for their actions.

Law Enforcement loses their immunity when they commit a crime, even if they are doing "their job."

It wouldn't be burglary at least in the state of Illinois.....To committ burglary here it has to be with the intent to committ a theft or "other felony crime" as well as what you have mentioned. If they burst the door down to peer at a number it would be a trespass at the most and an illegal search, also as far as signing a criminal complaint. No leg to stand on there as any of the agents would state that they were acting on good faith or other reasonable matter, which gives them immunity from criminal prosecution. (good faith generally as it refers to immunity especially when it comes to federal agents the court generally sides with the individual agents even when it doesn't side with the agency).

Also of some of the federal agents that I do know, and several police officers as well none of them would act in this manner without a warrant or consent from some one they believed had the ability to give the consent for the entry. I understand that we all have different experiences in life in dealing with the government and law enforcement, and this is just my experience.

The rest of what you have put about museums and such I will write off to a rant, but it is one that made sense to me and in the knee jerk society that we live in sometimes I wouldn't put this past the government.

Everyone Fly safe and enjoy the sky....

[Jim Stewart]

I'm still trying to understand where you're going with this, leithalweapon.

Surely you must agree that merely keeping a non-airworthy craft in a hanger violates no FAR's and is not illegal. Correct?

OTOH, if someone was observed operating a non-airworthy craft and this was reported to the FDSO, the FAA might send an inspector to snoop around and talk to the owner. Perhaps this is what happened. It's not clear to me what enforcement the FAA would try without some sort of proof. They might at least put the owner on notice that they are keeping an eye on him. But still, the presence of the aircraft in the hanger is not proof of illegal operation, only a bit of evidence.

[leithalweapon]

I just like messing with Cub Flyer.

[jlong16]

[quote="rab23us"][quote="jlong16"]
It wouldn't be burglary at least in the state of Illinois.....To committ burglary here it has to be with the intent to committ a theft or "other felony crime"
[i]
Trespass is a crime and constitutes the "other" part of the statute. Entering or remaining, for the purpose of committing a crime (the crime of trespass).[/i]

as well as what you have mentioned. If they burst the door down to peer at a number it would be a trespass at the most and an illegal search, also as far as signing a criminal complaint.

[i]
Once Law Enforcement commits a crime, all immunity is lost. That people have become afraid to fight crimes committed by government, is not at issue. Many judges have sided with property owners / lessees against illegal intrusion.[/i]

No leg to stand on there as any of the agents would state that they were acting on good faith or other reasonable matter, which gives them immunity from criminal prosecution.

[i]Good faith means some substance on which to base your actions. Claiming the right to break in to any building in the HOPE of finding something illegal, doesn't cut it under the 2nd amendment.[/i]

Also of some of the federal agents that I do know, and several police officers as well none of them would act in this manner without a warrant or consent from some one they believed had the ability to give the consent for the entry. I understand that we all have different experiences in life in dealing with the government and law enforcement, and this is just my experience.

The rest of what you have put about museums and such I will write off to a rant, but it is one that made sense to me and in the knee jerk society that we live in sometimes I wouldn't put this past the government.
:D[/quote]

The crux of my point is valid. A "fat" ultralight, sitting in a locked hanger, does not constitute a crime.
PERIOD.
Breaking in to find it sitting there, proves nothing except that the offending officer is a jerk and has no intelligent concept of probable cause and right to search.

Breaking in to find a "fat" ultra-light could be offered as proof that the owner is FOLLOWING the law and not using it, since it is not in operation and any jurist could figure that out.

[rab23us]

It wouldn't be burglary at least in the state of Illinois.....To committ burglary here it has to be with the intent to committ a theft or "other felony crime"

Trespass is a crime and constitutes the "other" part of the statute. Entering or remaining, for the purpose of committing a crime (the crime of trespass). In Illinois Tresspass is a misdemeanor not a felony Hence doesn't fit...Unless of course you are living in your hangar....

as well as what you have mentioned. If they burst the door down to peer at a number it would be a trespass at the most and an illegal search, also as far as signing a criminal complaint.


Once Law Enforcement commits a crime, all immunity is lost. That people have become afraid to fight crimes committed by government, is not at issue. Many judges have sided with property owners / lessees against illegal intrusion. Once again you are assuming that a federal authority would do something without a warrant, which of course is signed by a judge.......

No leg to stand on there as any of the agents would state that they were acting on good faith or other reasonable matter, which gives them immunity from criminal prosecution.

Good faith means some substance on which to base your actions. Claiming the right to break in to any building in the HOPE of finding something illegal, doesn't cut it under the 2nd amendment. Once again I know of no federal agents that would act without a warrant or at a minimum consent....consent= good faith warrant= good faith, unless of course the agent lied, but if he is not one of the agents serving the warrant then good faith........

Also of some of the federal agents that I do know, and several police officers as well none of them would act in this manner without a warrant or consent from some one they believed had the ability to give the consent for the entry. I understand that we all have different experiences in life in dealing with the government and law enforcement, and this is just my experience.

The rest of what you have put about museums and such I will write off to a rant, but it is one that made sense to me and in the knee jerk society that we live in sometimes I wouldn't put this past the government.

The crux of my point is valid. A "fat" ultralight, sitting in a locked hanger, does not constitute a crime.
PERIOD.
Breaking in to find it sitting there, proves nothing except that the offending officer is a jerk and has no intelligent concept of probable cause and right to search.

Breaking in to find a "fat" ultra-light could be offered as proof that the owner is FOLLOWING the law and not using it, since it is not in operation and any jurist could figure that out.

That is unless of course there is a taxing body that would be allowed to collect monies for the governement and it's not being paid.....Which I believe was the illustration posted by Cub Flyer, failure to pay a legal tax is a crime, and if the evidence is plane that having it stored there would be a crime (cuting some very thin hairs here but it is valid)....kind of a goofy law if you ask me...but goofier stuff has been done by the government.

Can argue all day long about this but the main point of may argument is that all of the agents/officer's that I know do not have the time to chase this kind of thing.......The IRS on the other hand seems to have nothing but time, and if that is an angle that is being pursued all I can say is wow look at the american tax dollar at work.

[leithalweapon]

I agree. Bottom line is if you want to use your fat ultralight for a door stop then you probably aren't in violation of any laws. The tax is a different story. Although most people just put that they paid a dollar on the bill of sale.