best IFR LSA

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I know that, but the 430 is more than sufficient for me. I don't need the 530. If i can get a 430 equipped aircraft for just under 160 brand new that has everything i need, I don't think i need to step up to a 530 for the same price in a used airplane. Like i said before im sure it is a descent price but just not for me.

[zdc]

I must be missing something here. Why are people taking what are supposed to be day VFR aircraft and loading them up with avionics. The only equipment you need for a sport plane are the instruments required by FAR for day VFR, a radio, xpndr and a GPS. You shouldn't even bother with the lights required for night VFR. Why make the acft more expensive than it has to be? Glass panels and a lot of add ons are not going to enhance your VFR flying experience. If you want to teach IFR you can buy a good used certified acft for a lot less money. It seems to me that sport planes are for sport pilots. It gets quite bumpy flying in the clouds, I would think a more stable platform than a LSA would be better for IFR students. My opinion is that if people begin using these acft for purposes other than sport the govt is going to get much more involved. Lets face facts about sport planes. They are for the pure enjoyment of flying and for people who would otherwise be restricted from flying by FAA medical requirements for a private. You can't carry more than one passenger and not much luggage. Other than fuel, I don't think operating costs are lower for a sport plane unless you do the repair and inspection work yourself. If you think you'll have more versitality by being able to to sport and IFR, I just don't think so. The best use for a sport plane is to teach sport pilots and for your own flying pleasure.

[rfane]

zdc,

A Private Pilot can fly Night VFR in an LSA, and if they have an Instrument rating, they can fly IFR in an LSA, as long as the manufacturer has not prohibited those activities in the Aircraft Operating Instructions. This is per the ASTM standards, under which LSA are made.

Most manufacturers include language that state in the AOI, that the aircraft needs to be operated in accordance with the limitations set by the manufacturer of the engine, etc. Rotax has revised their limitations on the 912ULS to allow Night VFR if the aircraft meets criteria specified in their manual. Continental's O-200 is a certified engine, with no prohibitions on how it's operated, as far as I know. I'm not sure of Jabiru's limitations.

The ASTM standards for LSA are still in development, and some of the manufacturers are producing aircraft that they believe will meet that standard, when it is released. Many expect it to be released soon.

It can be quite cheaper to maintain an LSA, than it is a FAR 23 aircraft. Parts do not have to be as expensive for one. For example, you can buy a box of 10 spark plugs for the Rotax, for the price of one spark plug for a certified engine. Other parts are similar. Also, you can use mechanics with much cheaper rates than most A&P's. The local A&P's here are charging $95 an hour rates. LSR-M's that I use are charging $25 to $50 an hour, and are flexible enough to travel to my location, for a low fee. Labor and travel for my latest annual ran $620, and included labor for changing all three tires. The guy travelled 4 hours each way, to come to my airport, and worked on my plane for two days. I supplied all of the parts seperately, including oil, filter, plugs, tires, and tubes, which ran probably $250. Just having a tube replaced by my local A&P ran close to $240, when I had a flat a while back.

[[email protected]]

ZDC I could not disagree with you more. Yes a sport pilot license does allow you to fly an LSA day VFR, but there are many cost savings flying an LSA in all conditions. Maintenance is far less, aquisition cost is about half, and fuel burn is a joke and capable of burning mogas no less! There are many advantages to LSA's outside of day vfr flying. The reason that I am looking for one of these is that I recently finished all my commercial and instructor ratings(cfi cfii mei agi igi) and there is not a single flight school within 2 hours of where i live that is hiring instructors. My thought was that if i could buy an airplane and give instruction in it, i would be able to build hours and pay off my own airplane at the same time. I am capable of getting some of my own students where I live and the lower the costs are the better the margins are. I could go buy an IFR approved piper warrior with a g430 for 50-80k, but it would be severely used. when you factor in fuel, maintenance, 100 hour inspections, and average the cost of the tbo by the hour, it comes out to be right around 40 an hour to run the airplane. A warrior is almost twice this cost. Warriors and LSA's seem to rent for the same money so it only seems logical to do so with the LSA if possible. This is what i am here to figure out. If i don't get an IFR approved LSA it isn't the end of the world, but i can't do as much different types of instruction. in a warrior i can't do sport pilot instruction. an ifr approved lsa gives me the most diversity with the best margins for profit in a reliable new airframe. As it seems like the acquisition cost is more than I anticipated, I should just continue to searc for an instructing job. Sport pilot instruction would be the most fun also because it focuses on the pure excitement of flying, but i will take what i can get that helps me build hours. maybe that clarifies my situation a bit.

[zdc]

You are correct in all you say. But if you have private and IFR privelages why buy an LSA? It's a buyers market for some pretty good certified aircraft. You can pay for years of operating expence in the differnce in cost for a certified acft that has a lot more utility than a new LSA. Is there a difference between an FAR certified acft and a ATSM acft? Something to think about when you are in solid IMC with moderate turbulance.

Don't get me wrong, I love sport planes, but I think that if they are marketed to people as something other than sport planes then you may have some very dissatisfied customers left with a bad taste in their mouths for sport planes.

[zdc]

Chris, let me play devils advocate. If none of the flight schools are hiring that may mean demand is down. One of the previous posters, N117A I think , did exactly what you are thinking of doing. Did you ask him about his experience? I'm not selling airplanes so I don't have a dog is this fight, but I think you need the right airplane for the right mission. Not long ago a sport plane was put on leaseback to the local flight school and it was a disaster, not becuase it was a bad plane but because it was a bad fit.

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ZDC you make some very good points. The numbers are far better on an LSA not to mention the predicted reliability with a new or near new airplane vs a used warrior or 172, but there is more to a business than just numbers of course. Like i said i was more than anything simply attempting to research my options. Patience is not one of my best virtues. I am not looking for a left seat 777 job fresh out of school, I simply don't want to have to pay for flight time anymore and I thought this would be a possible way to do that. I will continue to look at the purchase route, but maybe i should just be a little patient with the job market for pilots/instructors.

[zdc]

Chris, some very experienced people will tell you, that if you are going to have any chance at breaking even in flight instruction, you have to be all business. That means at least two acft, so that when one is down another is available. It also means full time, so that an instructor is available when a customer wants to fly. That means to pay for the insurance [quite high], maintenance [ a bunch for acft used in flight instruction] tie down and fuel, you have to do a high volume business. The smart flight school owners own no aircraft, but get all their acft on leaseback. That way they have no capital or operating cost but still get a cut for every hour the acft is flown.

[tadel001]

Interesting discussion. We own aircraft. We own only light sport aircraft. We have both sport pilot students and private pilot students. In fact, we have over 70 active students right now plus over 300 renters. The sport plane market opens many doors. If you have a day VFR LSA only, you are limited to training only SP. If you have night LSA, you can train PP. If you have an IFR LSA, you can train all the up through the IFR ticket. So, the question is how big do you want to expand your potential market.

Yes, you can buy a IFR Part 23 aircraft. However, many of these IFR LSAs are better equipped for the price of their Part 23 competition. I am not talking about a 1970s steam gauge 172 IFR with old radios. I am talking about the good stuff that the majority of schools are currently renting.

As for flying IMC in an LSA, I don't see much of difference between flying the Sierra and a 172 in IMC. I do see a huge difference from flying a 152 and the Sierra (big advantage Sierra) in IMC.

I am shocked at the number of schools that have not added sport planes. We just picked up 12 new students this past week. No advertising. Why? Because there is a huge market for this kind of training and the ability to fly new planes. If you build it (correctly), they will come.

Most of the schools that have used Sport Planes and have not done well with them is entirely based on the lack of knowledge on behalf of the school.

[zdc]

Hi Tadel001, very good points. However I was mainly addressing a young man who is thinking about laying out a great deal of money for an IFR LSA, thinking he could run a one man flight school and recoup his money. After that doesn't work he now owns an IFR LSA that cost much more than a day VFR LSA. So lets look at IFR LSA not from a training perspective but from an owners viewpoint. There are some very good sales people out there that can sell anything to anybody. If a very good salesman gets me all excited about an IFR LSA and I buy one am I going to end up having buyers remorse? Yes. If I have an IFR rating, why would I want an LSA. If I fly IFR that means I have places to go other than stopping for lunch somewhere. If I have places to go that usually means I'm taking someone with me and I want to take whatever I need along such as hunting gear, camping equipment, beach umbrellas, enough luggage for an extended stay etc. Lets be realistic, you can't do that with an IFR LSA. Yes you have an IFR capable aircraft, but for what reason? When people start crashing sport planes in IFR the FAA will start examining the production standards more closely and that could set back the whole concept of sport flying. Remember, this is an industry that is being built entirely around a govt regulation, and what the govt gives the govt can take away. Look at the approach ICON is taking. They're not pretending sport planes are for anything but fun and the enjoyment of flying. Going on vacation? Stuff all you need in the SUV and trailer the acft, then have a blast flying when you get there.

[N117FA]

Chris,

We started our business last year as the economy was taking a dive. Since that time, we have been pleasantly surprised at the amount of business we are bringing in due to the increased interest in the Sport Pilot certificate. I hired an additional instructor and am considering bringing another on board. The majority of our business is comprised of those seeking their Sport Pilot or Private Pilot certificates as well as rental.

In order to keep up with the demand we are in the process of researching other LSAs to add to our school.

While we have few Instrument students, there is a growing amount of interest/curiosity in having the option to learn instrument in an LSA.

Chris, if you have further specific questions, instead of trying to write all of my experiences down in an email/thread, which will likely bring more questions, please give me a call at your convenience. My contact info is on the website. If I am not in, I will call you when I get the opportunity.

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Thanks to all for your help. I do appreciate both sides of the discussion. N117fa I will be contacting you shortly. Who would i ask for when i call? tadel001 where is your school located?

[Helen]

There are only three choices for an IFR legal LSA at this point. Tecnam, AMD, and SportStar. AMD aircraft use an O200 which makes their planes too heavy to carry two average people and enough fuel to legally fly IFR.

I have had one flight in a SportStar and that was a disaster. The salesman brought the thing by to show us as a potential trainer for the school. I got in and the rudder pedals were 6 inches beyond my feet and the panel 6 inches above my head (I'm 5' 6"). I asked him how to adjust these things and he said they weren't adjustable nor had he brought any pillows! Now that was about a year ago and maybe they've fixed this by now (or at least started supplying pillows) but it certainly wasn't a way to sell a plane to me.

I instruct primarily in Tecnam aircraft and I can definitely recommend them. They are stable, well built, have good US support, and have enough useful load for IFR ops. Oh, and I can see out of them and reach the rudder pedals!

As for the 430 vs the 530, I have a 530 in my Cessna and am glad I paid the extra money, although I do think having both on board as many people do is redundant. The 530 has a much bigger screen, a nice compass rose nav page like the Garmin handhelds, and auto-decodes the morese code on the VOR you are tuned into and shows its radial. The 430 doesn't have these.

One thing though. Save enough panel space for a Garmin hand held as well. That costs a fraction of the cost of upgrading a 430 or 530 for weather.

Helen

[zdc]

The AMD is too heavy to carry two average people and fly legal IFR? Any numbers to support that?

[Helen]

Yup. This is the w&b from a local instructor who has an IFR Zodiac.

http://www.forsythaviation.us/page5.html

An O200 burns on average 6gph. Remember, IFR fuel minimums for flight in IMC require enough fuel to fly to your destination, fly the approach, then fly to your alternate and fly the approach there, and then have 45 minutes extra on top of that. You'll note that this plane is right at gross with two average 200lb men and 2 hours of fuel, hardly enough fuel to meet IFR requirements for any sort of an IFR flight in IMC.

Helen