Bristell - BRM Aero - HIGH WING B8

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

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Re: Bristell - BRM Aero - HIGH WING B8

Post by Sling 2 Pilot »

Warmi wrote:
designrs wrote:
Sling 2 Pilot wrote:IMHO, they are shooting themselves in the foot, with a 600kg MAUW. God only knows what they want for it? Bet it’s north of $210k.
600 kg is 1322 lbs. Minus two pounds and it’s an LSA! Plus Europe has many classes of light aircraft. I don’t see how that’s “shooting them in the foot.”

Yeah, many but not all Bristell’s are north of $200k... so are Tecnams and a few others. I believe that Tecnam was over $200k for some models about three years ago!

Don’t forget the 912is 914 and now the 915is are pushing prices up from the ROTAX engine cost.

If you compare Bristell to SportCruiser today (which are running about $150k to $175k) I can see the value of spending the extra money... especially considering the recent production numbers, product refinement, and USA support team. On the other hand, SportCruiser is doing a very nice job at the $150k mark for the training markets and others.

Does anyone need a $200k LSA? Maybe, maybe not... but I do see the value in Bristell for those who are able and willing to spend it!
Think he meant that they are designing a plane at 600 kg gross that will become immediately obsolete when new rules come into play - what they could have done is design for , say 1500-1600 lbs gross and then placard it for 1320 , the way TAF is handling Sling 2 planes.
Yes Warmi, that’s what I meant.
kaputt16
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Re: Bristell - BRM Aero - HIGH WING B8

Post by kaputt16 »

designrs wrote:
Sling 2 Pilot wrote:IMHO, they are shooting themselves in the foot, with a 600kg MAUW. God only knows what they want for it? Bet it’s north of $210k.
600 kg is 1322 lbs. Minus two pounds and it’s an LSA! Plus Europe has many classes of light aircraft. I don’t see how that’s “shooting them in the foot.”

Yeah, many but not all Bristell’s are north of $200k... so are Tecnams and a few others. I believe that Tecnam was over $200k for some models about three years ago!

Don’t forget the 912is 914 and now the 915is are pushing prices up from the ROTAX engine cost.

If you compare Bristell to SportCruiser today (which are running about $150k to $175k) I can see the value of spending the extra money... especially considering the recent production numbers, product refinement, and USA support team. On the other hand, SportCruiser is doing a very nice job at the $150k mark for the training markets and others.

Does anyone need a $200k LSA? Maybe, maybe not... but I do see the value in Bristell for those who are able and willing to spend it!
Even the Sling2’s are north of $200k now. Or at least their new Next Gen Trainer model that they released was around $202k or so I believe.
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Warmi
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Re: Bristell - BRM Aero - HIGH WING B8

Post by Warmi »

Last time I checked you can get a basic single Garmin model for around 170k - I think the advanced trainer comes loaded with full Garmin avionics , including their IFR navigators - GNX 375 alone with installation will run up the price by 10+ k.

For a trainer, I guess it makes sense, but I am not entirely sure what is the point of loading a 1320 lbs plane with IFR navigators - is an occasional IFR training approach worth all that money ? - I would rather get a 914 ( or preferably a 915is ) engine instead :D
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designrs
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Re: Bristell - BRM Aero - HIGH WING B8

Post by designrs »

Warmi wrote:I would rather get a 914 ( or preferably a 915is ) engine instead :D
915 IS all the way! I’m not sure if it makes sense as a trainer, but for pilots with decent amount of experience... yeah baby!
- Richard
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Previous Owner: 2011 SportCruiser
kaputt16
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Re: Bristell - BRM Aero - HIGH WING B8

Post by kaputt16 »

Makes sense on that one being loaded with Garmin IFR avionics, didn’t think of that.
designrs wrote:
Warmi wrote:I would rather get a 914 ( or preferably a 915is ) engine instead :D
915 IS all the way! I’m not sure if it makes sense as a trainer, but for pilots with decent amount of experience... yeah baby!
I need to ask the Sling guys if you could put a 915is in the Sling2 kit builds.
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Re: Bristell - BRM Aero - HIGH WING B8

Post by drseti »

Two points to consider about the 915:

(1) it's a really heavy engine. At 185 pounds, that's 50 pounds more than a 912S. It was intended for the certified market. Without a significant LSA weight increase, using it will severely degrade useful load.

(2) it was designed for use with a constant-speed prop. As long as ASTM rules restrict LSAs to fixed pitch, it will deliver less than optimum performance in our applications.
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designrs
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Re: Bristell - BRM Aero - HIGH WING B8

Post by designrs »

Loaded Bristell, 912 ULS with Chute = 800 pounds
Loaded Bristell, 912 IS, no chute = 800 pounds
Single Garmin Bristell, 912 IS, no chute, no wheel fairings = 779 pounds

(Source: USA importer website at https://thelandingdoctor.com/inventory )

Bristell has a shorter “Performance Wing” that is loaded a little heavier for a smoother flight (while still meeting LSA requirements). That wing has a little less climb than the standard wing, so it makes very good use of the 914 or 915.

My SportCruiser was heavy at 870 pounds (912 ULS with Chute)...
Don’t ask me why it was so dang heavy!!
It must have been the heavy aluminum and the chute, but I managed the weight well.

My real-world cruise was only 95 to 110 kts.
What I really wished for was increased climb to get on top of broken layers (I just hated that looooong slow climb, especially in the hot Florida Summers when all I wanted to do is get up high where it is cool! ... and a solid 120 kts cruise would be nice.

I’ll take a Bristell at 850 pounds with the 915 IS and significantly increased climb & cruise.
One of my flying goals is to fly West. I’ve never been out of airports at 5,000+ feet, and that’s where the 915 really shines!

Another interesting spec about the 915 IS is that it actually runs on lower compression than the 912, which means a less stressed motor (in some ways). ROTAX did have to extensively upgrade the gearbox and many other parts for the huge horsepower increase.

Dr. Paul & other experts, can you please tell us more about 915 IS performance increases in LSA with a fixed pitch prop?
Smaller performance increases might actually be better for LSA, since HUGE PERFORMANCE increases might not “fly” under LSA regulations. Then again, I don’t believe that there are any LSA performance limitations as to climb rate. Fix pitch the prop right, be done with it, and have fun! Right?

I just want honest LSA performance increases that allow for the full utilization of the LSA envelope!

What about working out the bugs with the 915 IS? I hear there are a couple of hundred customer planes flying with the 915 around the world?

What about “auto adjustable” props? Can they be on the horizon for LSA?

THANKS & HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!
- Richard
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ash31Mi
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Re: Bristell - BRM Aero - HIGH WING B8

Post by ash31Mi »

I own a Tecnam Astore which is a superb aircraft, but if buying again I'd seriously consider Bristell; looks like they have a better focus on the small plane end of the market, whereas Tecnam appears to be ignoring small planes in favor of their larger models.
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Re: Bristell - BRM Aero - HIGH WING B8

Post by 3Dreaming »

ash31Mi wrote:I own a Tecnam Astore which is a superb aircraft, but if buying again I'd seriously consider Bristell; looks like they have a better focus on the small plane end of the market, whereas Tecnam appears to be ignoring small planes in favor of their larger models.
And a pretty nice powered sailplane if you forum handle is any indication.
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Warmi
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Re: Bristell - BRM Aero - HIGH WING B8

Post by Warmi »

ash31Mi wrote:I own a Tecnam Astore which is a superb aircraft, but if buying again I'd seriously consider Bristell; looks like they have a better focus on the small plane end of the market, whereas Tecnam appears to be ignoring small planes in favor of their larger models.
Well the upside for you is that it is likely Tecnam will still be around long after Bristell is gone ... :-)
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ShawnM
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Re: Bristell - BRM Aero - HIGH WING B8

Post by ShawnM »

drseti wrote:(1) it's a really heavy engine. At 185 pounds, that's 50 pounds more than a 912S. It was intended for the certified market. Without a significant LSA weight increase, using it will severely degrade useful load.
You couldn't put the 915is in the new SportCruisers, hell you can even put the 912is in the newest SportCruiser as they are already at max BEW. The newest planes are VERY, VERY heavy. This is why even today the only engine you can get in a SportCruiser is the tried and true 912ULS. :mrgreen:
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Re: Bristell - BRM Aero - HIGH WING B8

Post by designrs »

Warmi wrote:
ash31Mi wrote:I own a Tecnam Astore which is a superb aircraft, but if buying again I'd seriously consider Bristell; looks like they have a better focus on the small plane end of the market, whereas Tecnam appears to be ignoring small planes in favor of their larger models.
Well the upside for you is that it is likely Tecnam will still be around long after Bristell is gone ... :-)
Yeah, Tecnam is huge but who knows what will happen in a corporate world. I’m not specifically knocking Tecnam in any way, and hope they will be building light planes for a long time.

Bristell just expanded its factory and is producing over 125 planes a year. They own the factory land, have very low debt, and only need to produce about 25 to 35 planes per year to pay their overhead. I realize that their production numbers started low, but they are up now... and they are doing great things!

See this video, especially around the 3:25 mark.

https://youtu.be/Tmo3bBaiaA8
- Richard
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designrs
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Re: Bristell - BRM Aero - HIGH WING B8

Post by designrs »

ShawnM wrote:
drseti wrote:(1) it's a really heavy engine. At 185 pounds, that's 50 pounds more than a 912S. It was intended for the certified market. Without a significant LSA weight increase, using it will severely degrade useful load.
You couldn't put the 915is in the new SportCruisers, hell you can even put the 912is in the newest SportCruiser as they are already at max BEW. The newest planes are VERY, VERY heavy. This is why even today the only engine you can get in a SportCruiser is the tried and true 912ULS. :mrgreen:
Damn! SportCruiser needs to get on it with some redesign! The 912 IS has been out a while.
- Richard
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Re: Bristell - BRM Aero - HIGH WING B8

Post by Wm.Ince »

Warmi wrote:. . . it is likely Tecnam will still be around long after Bristell is gone ... :-)
What is the basis for that assertion?
What makes you think Bristell is going anywhere but up?
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designrs
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Re: Bristell - BRM Aero - HIGH WING B8

Post by designrs »

ShawnM wrote:the newest SportCruiser as they are already at max BEW. The newest planes are VERY, VERY heavy. This is why even today the only engine you can get in a SportCruiser is the tried and true 912ULS. :mrgreen:
My 2011 SportCruiser with the 912 ULS and BRS was 870 pounds!

If you look at Bristell, the rivets are very close together. This is because they use thin aluminum where they can. I also believe that they have “wet wings.” Empty weight is 777 lbs with the 912 IS. Other specs: load factor of +4 g / -2 g, Vne 155 kias, Vno 115, Va 96. high-back seats, NO BRS, performance wing, and equipped as per photo below.
A3629694-2EBF-46AD-BBD2-2AE28588AC02.jpeg
A3629694-2EBF-46AD-BBD2-2AE28588AC02.jpeg (101.91 KiB) Viewed 2393 times
- Richard
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