What ever happened to the Groppo Trail?

[SmoothIsFast]

I was researching some different LSAs while procrastinating on housework last weekend (who among us?) and came across the Italian-made Groppo Trail. It's a fairly popular design in Europe in both kit and ready-to-fly form. It briefly had U.S. representation that seems to have ended a few years ago, and now you can only buy one in the U.S. as an E-AB kit. I think there are only a few flying in the U.S.

It's got a lot of interesting design features that I would look for in an LSA if/when I decide to buy one: high-wing, all-metal construction, tandem seating, folding wings, good useful load. Has anyone here ever flown in a Trail or even seen one up close? The plane got a lot of positive reviews when it was first introduced to the U.S. market as an SLSA, so I'm wondering if its failure to gain traction was due to a lack of interest from LSA buyers or some problem with the company/distributor.

[JimParker256]

Their website indicates their US "dealer" is a phone number and an email...
Tel. +1 904-914-9001
[email protected]

[SmoothIsFast]

Yeah, I emailed that address and their main company info address about it. They confirmed that it's available only as a 51% EAB kit--no ELSA/SLSA. The "contact person" at that number is just a guy who built one, but he's not a dealer as far as I know.

I'd consider it, but I have more money than time at this point in my life (not that I have a lot of either). I'd rather buy something already flying than build one. The plane does have a certain allure for me--performance numbers similar to a Rans S-7 but less expensive and all-metal.

[jetcat3]

The Trail is a cool bird. Lots of Facebook presence and many amazing videos.

Have you looked at the Zlin Norden? That’s the real showstopper of 2020. At 4:00 here. https://youtu.be/5Olmfj7O4Ec

[SmoothIsFast]

Is that you Pasquale Russo? Yes, the Savage Norden is an impressive plane, and if I had $130k lying around, I'd probably cut Bill Canino a check for one. (That's actually a really good price if the plane is everything Zlin claims it is.)

I'm curious to see how it sells in the U.S. market.

[JimParker256]

It will sell like crazy, IF they actually get it here at anything near that price! But the numbers I've seen make that seem pretty doubtful... Their "standard" Savage cub seems to go for well above that number, and the turbo engine and constant-speed prop will raise the cost significantly. (Not to mention making it no longer Light Sport pilot eligible, due to the prop). But I hope they can pull it off!

[jetcat3]

It will sell like crazy, IF they actually get it here at anything near that price! But the numbers I've seen make that seem pretty doubtful... Their "standard" Savage cub seems to go for well above that number, and the turbo engine and constant-speed prop will raise the cost significantly. (Not to mention making it no longer Light Sport pilot eligible, due to the prop). But I hope they can pull it off!

Hey Jim, I live in McKinney! The official prices are as follows.

912 ULS Norden-108,449 Euros

914 UL Norden-123,051 Euros

915 iS Norden-135,505 Euros

No, it’s just one of Pasquale’s biggest fans! For the life of me I don’t understand why there’s not more talk of the Norden in 2020. I’ve posted it everywhere I can and people just don’t seem too excited about it. It’s only one of the greatest STOL design of all time! At those prices, it’s a steal but without proper marketing and awareness it’ll be tough for Zlin to sell very many here.

[Warmi]

It will sell like crazy, IF they actually get it here at anything near that price! But the numbers I've seen make that seem pretty doubtful... Their "standard" Savage cub seems to go for well above that number, and the turbo engine and constant-speed prop will raise the cost significantly. (Not to mention making it no longer Light Sport pilot eligible, due to the prop). But I hope they can pull it off!

Hey Jim, I live in McKinney! The official prices are as follows.

912 ULS Norden-108,449 Euros

914 UL Norden-123,051 Euros

915 iS Norden-135,505 Euros

No, it’s just one of Pasquale’s biggest fans! For the life of me I don’t understand why there’s not more talk of the Norden in 2020. I’ve posted it everywhere I can and people just don’t seem too excited about it. It’s only one of the greatest STOL design of all time! At those prices, it’s a steal but without proper marketing and awareness it’ll be tough for Zlin to sell very many here.

I guess most people simply don’t care about STOL capabilities. The price is really great and I hope their new model is much better than their old Cub models circa 2008 or so ... I did my taildragger training with that older Cub and frankly , beside being STOl and being able to land pretty much anywhere , it was quite uncomfortable ( more than an hour in it and I was hurting all over - while I can easily manage 2+ hours in my Sting ) and controls were very mushy - compared to Sting it was like everything was happening in slomo - their new Norden is supposed to be complete redesign as far as ergonomics and controls ( they are using pushrods now ).

[JimParker256]

JetCat3 - What kind of LSA are you flying, and is it based at McKinney or nearby? I'm flying a RANS S-6ES with 912ULS and big tires (8:00x6), so mine is a bit slow (100-105 mph cruise). The other LSA guys at McKinney that I know are all flying SportCruiser or RV-12 type airplanes, so we're not very compatible for flying together – something I think would be fun to do at some point.

Warmi – I could not disagree more with your statement that there's little interest in STOL designs... STOL competitions are popping up all over the country, including AirVenture, Sun-N-Fun, AOPA Fly-Ins, and a whole host of "local" ones. There have been three within 250 miles of my home in the last 8 months or so (despite the Covid-19 shutdown of most major fly-ins). Every aviation magazine you pick up has coverage of STOL aircraft designs. Even the RV guys are bugging the heck out of Van Grusven to design a high-wing STOL plane. The RANS S-21 Outbound is exactly what they are looking for, and so many folks have ordered kits and/or S-LSA versions that RANS is currently running about an 18-month lead time for factory-built S-LSAs, and well over a year for kits! The Kitfox folks are also about a year behind demand for their kits. And I'm pretty sure there's significant lead time for SuperSTOL kits as well. Bottom line is that STOL kitplanes could not be hotter right now!

But back to the Norden: To me, it looks very much like a very nice "homage" to the RANS S-7 (which is a great design itself, and also on that same 12+ month back-order from RANS). It's not a "copy" of the S-7 per se, but the fuselage is eerily similar, and the standard "Savage Cub" wings are likewise very similar. The Norden, of course, is a major departure from even the standard Savage Cub, with different wing, flaps, slats, etc.

But I still believe that the pricing will be higher than we would hope... Translating those Euro prices to US Dollars (Oct 7, 2020 exchange rates) yields the following (rounded to the nearest $):

912ULS Norden - 108,449 Euro ~ $127,609
914 UL Norden - 123,051 Euro ~ $145,321
915 iS Norden - 135,505 Euro ~ $159,445

That's before crating and shipping costs from Europe, import duties, etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm hoping they are successful beyond their wildest dreams, but until we actually see published US prices, we just won't know the actual cost. The fact that their only major competition is the Carbon Cub (which sells for 2X to 3X as much) creates concern that they might raise their profit margin here in the US to meet the demand level, much as drug manufacturers set different prices for different markets...

But I'm definitely watching what they are doing – and trying to dampen my own enthusiasm sufficiently to avoid any disappointment should they arrive with a $250K+ price tag...

PS - Sorry to the OP for the thread hijack!