how about insulating the oil tank. Then leave the tape off the cooler and let the thermostat regulate the temp.
Might be even with the thermostat closed the cold air coming through the oil cooler blows around the engine compartment and is not letting the oil tank warm up. could you reroute the hoses to bypass the cooler. Then it would be the same as flying with it taped off. Remove the tape and see if the oil temp drops or stays low in flight. If it does then the tank is getting too much airflow through the cooler inlet.
A fireproof wrap around or even a shield ahead of the tank may do it.
Didn't make my first flight tonight.
Moderator: drseti
If putting tape on the radiator solves the problem then a working thermostat which bypassed the radiator would also solve the problem. From what I have heard the thermostat does not actually stop flow through the radiator because of worries failure in the cutoff mode. The result is a worthless $509 investment which FD should not be offering as an option and should refund the money to those who purchaced it.Cub flyer wrote:how about insulating the oil tank. Then leave the tape off the cooler and let the thermostat regulate the temp.
thermostat open or closed the same amount of air flows through the cooler into the cowl.
The tape blocks the air from flowing in.
wrapping the oil tank might be worth a try. Kitfox used to have a fireproof quilted blanket material for the firewall. aircraft spruce may have the same.
Another example is oil breathers on large continental engines. I put black foam pipe insulation over the breather tubes when they are on the cold side of the baffling to keep the moisture from freezing. Stays on all year round even hot summer days. Old Alaska trick. We taped 1/2 of the oil coolers on the 185 and 207 in the winter also. Ran Aeroshell 100W all winter long. Even 25 below 0 F.
Since it gets cold where FD produces and tests the airplane they must have had some idea the thermostats did not work.
Or never tested it.
The X air designer once told me they did not test some modifications. Just made changes and waited to see what type of feedback from customers they got. It was difficult to get permission for flying in India.
Got my feedback on that one.
The tape blocks the air from flowing in.
wrapping the oil tank might be worth a try. Kitfox used to have a fireproof quilted blanket material for the firewall. aircraft spruce may have the same.
Another example is oil breathers on large continental engines. I put black foam pipe insulation over the breather tubes when they are on the cold side of the baffling to keep the moisture from freezing. Stays on all year round even hot summer days. Old Alaska trick. We taped 1/2 of the oil coolers on the 185 and 207 in the winter also. Ran Aeroshell 100W all winter long. Even 25 below 0 F.
Since it gets cold where FD produces and tests the airplane they must have had some idea the thermostats did not work.
Or never tested it.
The X air designer once told me they did not test some modifications. Just made changes and waited to see what type of feedback from customers they got. It was difficult to get permission for flying in India.
Got my feedback on that one.
The thermostat is from Flight Design (Rotax does not provide one). Even if Lockwood had something better it could not be installed without approval from Flight Design. That is the down side of SLSA, only the manufacturer can approve equipment on the airframe. That gives them a monopoly on parts.Cub flyer wrote:Is the oil thermostat an airframe part or Rotax part.
Does Lockwood have something better?
I have no aircraft. I have no license. But I was mentally warming to the idea of both until I read this thread.
It seems to me that a $130,000 piece of machinery should not have to be jury-rigged with tape in order to avoid freezing the pilot in flight, nor should the craft have a dead and unreliable battery from the time of initial delivery. And though I wouldn't mind learning how the machine works, I don't want to feel as though I have to become an aircraft technician to know the cowling has been fitted improperly or the right kind of aluminum tape to use on the heater ducting or what have you. And do ALL LSA aircraft engines require oil changes every 25 - 50 hours, or is that just the Rotax?
art, I feel for you. If there was a way to make sure you didn't suffer from any backlash by my doing so I would raise holy hell on your behalf with the dealer AND the manufacturer and tell them to read this entire thread. I think they should be embarrassed to have such things being said about them and their service and products.
Is it unreasonable to expect to buy a new LSA and have everything work well and reliably without being treated like you've bought a $3,000 Yugo?
This has really been a rude awakening.
Are there any LSA's that one can buy today and maintain according to the book and then expect to fly with no other concerns or nagging issues such as those described here?
I saw a Remos G-3 ad emphasizing the price difference and the availability of the G-3 over the new Cessna LSA. Well, if buying a Cessna makes the ownership experience more pleasurable than what art has described here I'd say it was probably worth the money and the wait.
I had no idea this was going on in the world of LSA ownership.
It seems to me that a $130,000 piece of machinery should not have to be jury-rigged with tape in order to avoid freezing the pilot in flight, nor should the craft have a dead and unreliable battery from the time of initial delivery. And though I wouldn't mind learning how the machine works, I don't want to feel as though I have to become an aircraft technician to know the cowling has been fitted improperly or the right kind of aluminum tape to use on the heater ducting or what have you. And do ALL LSA aircraft engines require oil changes every 25 - 50 hours, or is that just the Rotax?
art, I feel for you. If there was a way to make sure you didn't suffer from any backlash by my doing so I would raise holy hell on your behalf with the dealer AND the manufacturer and tell them to read this entire thread. I think they should be embarrassed to have such things being said about them and their service and products.
Is it unreasonable to expect to buy a new LSA and have everything work well and reliably without being treated like you've bought a $3,000 Yugo?
This has really been a rude awakening.
Are there any LSA's that one can buy today and maintain according to the book and then expect to fly with no other concerns or nagging issues such as those described here?
I saw a Remos G-3 ad emphasizing the price difference and the availability of the G-3 over the new Cessna LSA. Well, if buying a Cessna makes the ownership experience more pleasurable than what art has described here I'd say it was probably worth the money and the wait.
I had no idea this was going on in the world of LSA ownership.
ruo: "It seems to me that a $130,000 piece of machinery should not have to be jury-rigged with tape in order to avoid freezing the pilot in flight, nor should the craft have a dead and unreliable battery from the time of initial delivery. "
Amen to that! I've been a member here just about since the forum opened, and unfortunately there've been more than a few posts like yours.
Unfortunately none of the pre-hack attack posts were ever restored, so we've lost way more than half of all the forum posts. One I especially remember was a guy who said he was looking forwarding to sport pilot training, because he read in Plane and Pilot that the new LSA planes would be around $50,000. Surprise! You're lucky to get a new flying lawnchair for that price.
I'd like to agree with you about the Cessna sport plane. But until we start actually seeing them, there's no way to evaluate the manufacturing quality. If the Flight Design that Art bought has so many problems, and it was made in Germany ... I'm a bit doubtful of the quality of the upcoming Cessna plane, made in China.
By the way, interesting factoid: Last summer (June 2007) EAA was proud to announce that over 2100 new sport pilot certificates had been issued. But most of those were already ultralight fliers who were required by FAA to get a sport pilot certificate. As of April 1 2008, FAA says there have been a total of 2143 certificates issued. Only 43 new certs in 9 months? What happened in July - December?
Reminds me of Cessna announcing last summer that it had received over 1000 orders for its new LSA Skycatcher. Then later admitted that 800 of those orders were from its own Cessna Pilot Centers, that were required by Cessna to order at least one.
Onward through the fog!
Tom
Amen to that! I've been a member here just about since the forum opened, and unfortunately there've been more than a few posts like yours.
Unfortunately none of the pre-hack attack posts were ever restored, so we've lost way more than half of all the forum posts. One I especially remember was a guy who said he was looking forwarding to sport pilot training, because he read in Plane and Pilot that the new LSA planes would be around $50,000. Surprise! You're lucky to get a new flying lawnchair for that price.
I'd like to agree with you about the Cessna sport plane. But until we start actually seeing them, there's no way to evaluate the manufacturing quality. If the Flight Design that Art bought has so many problems, and it was made in Germany ... I'm a bit doubtful of the quality of the upcoming Cessna plane, made in China.
By the way, interesting factoid: Last summer (June 2007) EAA was proud to announce that over 2100 new sport pilot certificates had been issued. But most of those were already ultralight fliers who were required by FAA to get a sport pilot certificate. As of April 1 2008, FAA says there have been a total of 2143 certificates issued. Only 43 new certs in 9 months? What happened in July - December?
Reminds me of Cessna announcing last summer that it had received over 1000 orders for its new LSA Skycatcher. Then later admitted that 800 of those orders were from its own Cessna Pilot Centers, that were required by Cessna to order at least one.
Onward through the fog!
Tom
I challenge you to come on down!
Ruo,
I'll make you the same offer I made Art. I'll pay your way to our annual CT Fly in next month in McMinnville. We had fourteen planes last year, expecting over twenty this year. Attended by folks from all over the county and the world.
Stop by and see why this continues to be the number one selling LSA and visit with the many owners. Event was reported on in most aviation magazines.
BUT, most importantly....remember there are two sides to every story. I certainly wouldn't base my opinion on one. A little common sense - do you think anyone would sell the amount of airplanes FD has if they all had bad batteries and you froze!!
AND - did I forget to mention it's the only LSA that's been flown around the world in record time by the Air Force of India. Do a little investigating and you'll find story's of crossing the cold Atlantic and so on and so on.
Give me a break!
Roger
www.ctflyer.com
I'll make you the same offer I made Art. I'll pay your way to our annual CT Fly in next month in McMinnville. We had fourteen planes last year, expecting over twenty this year. Attended by folks from all over the county and the world.
Stop by and see why this continues to be the number one selling LSA and visit with the many owners. Event was reported on in most aviation magazines.
BUT, most importantly....remember there are two sides to every story. I certainly wouldn't base my opinion on one. A little common sense - do you think anyone would sell the amount of airplanes FD has if they all had bad batteries and you froze!!
AND - did I forget to mention it's the only LSA that's been flown around the world in record time by the Air Force of India. Do a little investigating and you'll find story's of crossing the cold Atlantic and so on and so on.
Give me a break!
Roger
www.ctflyer.com
Last edited by Roger on Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: I challenge you to come on down!
So you have 14 happy owners out of how many planes sold? I don't claim that nobody is happy with Flight Design, only that I am not and I suspect anybody who lives in the mid Atlantic region of the US would not be. There could well be other regions where service and parts are unavailable. Based upon a previous post it seems that Cessna has more dealers than Flight Design has planes. That should give pause to anybody expecting after the sale support from Flight Design.Roger wrote:We had fourteen planes last year, expecting over twenty this year. Attended by folks from all over the county and the world.
yep just fourteen but....
I was going to leave that one alone but I can't. I have almost FIVE HUNDRED members that belong to the CT club. By far and away there are VERY FEW complaints, in fact quit the opposite.
I have no relationship with FD other than I love my plane and communicate with folks all over the world that own them. By far and away they're happy.
We know your not but in my mind that shouldn't be the basis for anothers opinion.
Roger
I have no relationship with FD other than I love my plane and communicate with folks all over the world that own them. By far and away they're happy.
We know your not but in my mind that shouldn't be the basis for anothers opinion.
Roger
The Indian flight and others...
Even before the Indian Air Force Round the World flight, the Flight Design CT has gathered significant experience from intercontinental flights: Berlin, Germany to Toronto, Canada, and Toulouse, France to Kongo, Africa. Intercontinental flights under extreme climate conditions give the Flight Design Team an approval of their concepts and additional knowledge for future development. “It is our goal to continue to serve our customers better than the competition,” noted Betsch.
full story: http://www.flightdesign.com/index.php?page=home&n=73
full story: http://www.flightdesign.com/index.php?page=home&n=73
The only airplane I have flown is the Flight Design CTSW and that is because that it is only light sport airplane that the local flight school has available. They have had a few problems with the airplane, which have been repaired or corrected without any problem.
New products come with a warranty for a reason. It's a guarantee from the builder that any problems that arise because of manufacturing problems will be remedied. When I was younger I worked at a place that sold John Deere lawn and garden equipment. I could entertain you with stories all day about the warranty problems that we had to deal with. John Deere did stand behind their equipment, though, and it was unusual to have warranty problems that they didn't take care of.
It seems that most of artp's problems have to do with the fact that he isn't getting good service from his dealer. Manufacturers like Flight Design had better be paying attention to this problem if they want to continue to have their business grow. I have read all of Artp's posts dealing with the problems he has been having and he has my sympathy. I think his best bet is to to call the dealer DAILY and bitch until they fix his airplane. He should also call Flight Design USA regularly and let them know about his problems. The squeaky wheel DOES get the grease.
In 2004 my brother and I flew to Oshkosh. It was the first time either of us had been there for an extended time (We flew in with the Bonanzas to Oshkosh, that is a story in itself). We visited the light sport aircraft mall and were immediately drawn to the Flight Design CTSW that was on display there. At the time I had no idea that I would be getting my light sport license in a Flight Design. As I recall the price quoted was around $75,000, although I don't remember how it was equipped.
My local flight school is currently waiting delivery on two new CTLS's. The CTSW that they have is going to be sub-leased to another light sport flying school, which is teaching in a Tecnam Bravo. They say that the Flight Design CTSW is a much better airplane than the Bravo.
New products come with a warranty for a reason. It's a guarantee from the builder that any problems that arise because of manufacturing problems will be remedied. When I was younger I worked at a place that sold John Deere lawn and garden equipment. I could entertain you with stories all day about the warranty problems that we had to deal with. John Deere did stand behind their equipment, though, and it was unusual to have warranty problems that they didn't take care of.
It seems that most of artp's problems have to do with the fact that he isn't getting good service from his dealer. Manufacturers like Flight Design had better be paying attention to this problem if they want to continue to have their business grow. I have read all of Artp's posts dealing with the problems he has been having and he has my sympathy. I think his best bet is to to call the dealer DAILY and bitch until they fix his airplane. He should also call Flight Design USA regularly and let them know about his problems. The squeaky wheel DOES get the grease.
In 2004 my brother and I flew to Oshkosh. It was the first time either of us had been there for an extended time (We flew in with the Bonanzas to Oshkosh, that is a story in itself). We visited the light sport aircraft mall and were immediately drawn to the Flight Design CTSW that was on display there. At the time I had no idea that I would be getting my light sport license in a Flight Design. As I recall the price quoted was around $75,000, although I don't remember how it was equipped.
My local flight school is currently waiting delivery on two new CTLS's. The CTSW that they have is going to be sub-leased to another light sport flying school, which is teaching in a Tecnam Bravo. They say that the Flight Design CTSW is a much better airplane than the Bravo.
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CharlieTango
- Posts: 1000
- Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am
- Location: Mammoth Lakes, California
don't forget artp was going to sell his ctsw (for a loss) about 6 months before he took delivery
his first reason was "fuel management" he wouldn't take experienced ct owner's word that this wasn't an issue. i have 325 hours and it isn't an issue at all.
next artp admitted he wasn't selling becuase of the fuel flow issue but because of the "safety issue" artp sees the ctsw as analogous to the chevrolet covair and inherently unsafe, though he had nothing to base it on but some old ntsb reports that concluded the problem was pilot error.
artp posts a fair amount and you seldom see a post from him that isn't bashing the ctsw.
just to be fair
his first reason was "fuel management" he wouldn't take experienced ct owner's word that this wasn't an issue. i have 325 hours and it isn't an issue at all.
next artp admitted he wasn't selling becuase of the fuel flow issue but because of the "safety issue" artp sees the ctsw as analogous to the chevrolet covair and inherently unsafe, though he had nothing to base it on but some old ntsb reports that concluded the problem was pilot error.
artp posts a fair amount and you seldom see a post from him that isn't bashing the ctsw.
just to be fair