Didn't make my first flight tonight.

[CharlieTango]

it is true that some flight design facilities surged in inventory of 07 ctsw's. flight design has different levels of dealerships.

some dealers did invest but dealers are not forced to. the housing/credit crisis then kept the extra inventory in stock longer than expected as many buyers slowly changed their thinking and stopped looking to equitity in their homes to finance their slsa.

2008 has had a good start with sales and these inventories have normalized to a small number.

Sounds about right to me.

By the way, I wish there were some way that a local TV consumer reporter could intercede on artp's behalf, as an objective 3rd party.

The last thing the dealer would want is adverse publicity and it's unlikely things could get any worse with artp's plane than they are now.

certainly a local news story might motivate art's dealer to deal with his squawks now. to say they couldn't get any worse is to mis-characterize it.

i know we are talking about a landing light being out and an optional thermostat that doesn't perform. not like he's rigged wrong, or his motor needs work or replacing or ... ?

[tadel001]

Roger,

I did do my homework. Run the N-Numbers on the register and look up the owners. You missed my point (which had nothing to do with bashing CT) it had to do with using sales as basis for assessing a great plane. I think that is a dangerous/misleading stat.

And no...not all Factories set their dealers up like that. In fact, many do not require you to stock inventory. Not sure what validity YouTube or the Indian Airforce is supposed to add...Seems like an odd tool to measure success. I have no doubt that there are many happy CT owners, many happy Allegro owners, many happy Tecnam owners, etc...

Unfortunately, dealers have a large influence on aircraft reputation, especially if that dealer is responsible for setting up the aircraft as opposed to a centralized assembly/certification point.

[Cub flyer]

3 of the 122 Legend cubs have been in accidents. One was a cap left off and the pilot refused to believe the sight gauges.

other two were ground handling, wind, tailwheel.

14 of the 232 CT's have had accidents. Various reasons.

Legend cubs are not normally used as trainers. Most CT accidents were during training. Usually with new students solo or high time CFI's in the right seat.

Just some numbers from the NTSB site. Go and read for yourself.

The reports are not always accurate. In our case it shows Boyd had 4 hours time but really he had 4 hours solo and 38 hours dual in his airplane

I have told NTSB numerous times to change the report but they will not.

His insurance company required 5 hours solo before he could fly with any other pilots other than a flight instructor.


Of course there are 102 pages of 172 accidents during the same time period.

I think what we have here are very low production figure airplanes. A lot less than 20 total with everyone buying what is essentially hand built prototypes from small cottage industry companies. It will take a long time for the fleet hours to show weak points. If you buy one and exceed the hours on the prototype you are now a test pilot every flight.

The amount of reliability and support is similar to people importing european supercars during 80's. How many lambo owners can drive across the country without some kind of failure or problem.

It will get better as the new manufactures get experience and a parts supply in this country. Some importers / dealers/ assemblers will be better than others. Sadly we are dealing with large sums of money and vehicles that need good reliability.

Some people are going to get burned and others will be happy.

[CharlieTango]

Roger,

...And no...not all Factories set their dealers up like that. In fact, many do not require you to stock inventory...

the flight design model requires a pre-purchase by the buyer and then a wait for manufacture and delivery. dealers are not required to stock inventory.

no doubt there was some pressure on the importer to order planes but the dealers are not required. the business does work better if you can buy a plane of the show room floor without a wait and a number were purchased.

another consideration is that the registrations are not always current and you may be seing some planes as regestered to dealers that were sold some time ago.

i am often at the west coast point of import, flight design west as well as another dealer and i get to see the planes arrive, get final assembly and regestration and then get sold. my impression is that the vast matjority of ctsw's are in the hands of private owners.

[artp]

i know we are talking about a landing light being out and an optional thermostat that doesn't perform. not like he's rigged wrong, or his motor needs work or replacing or ... ?

Both the landing light and the thermostat are optional, does that mean I am not entitled to have optional equipment repaired? Without the landing light I can't fly at night (which is why I paid extra for the night package). You didn't mention the failed CHT probe which means I have to operate with the engine alarms disabled so If a problem developed I would would not be warned unless I happened to see it occur. I am sure if that did happen Flight Design would say it was my fault for flying with a bad CHT probe and engine alarms disabled. I am equally sure you would be siding with them saying I should have gotten the engine instrumentation working before I flew the plane.

[CharlieTango]

art,

slow down, don't put words in my mouth. i know your squawks are important and should be addressed.

i'm on your side to a great extent. for instance if your battery was dead it shouldn't have been jumped it should have been replaced, your dealer obviously has some shortcomings.

i was however responding to the statement that your plane couldn't be worse. though your issues are important they are not major, they are easily dealt with ( not sure on the thermostat. ) you do have a tendency to transfer the problems between you and your dealership to flight design in general and it leads to accusations that are not accurate overall.

i added a cht guage to my ctsw, and realize that it is far from essential equipment so no i would "side against you" if you flew with it inopperative.

[CharlieTango]

3 of the 122 Legend cubs have been in accidents. One was a cap left off and the pilot refused to believe the sight gauges.

other two were ground handling, wind, tailwheel.

14 of the 232 CT's have had accidents. Various reasons.

...

Charlie,

i agree with most of what you say. it is noteworthy that the landing incidents have not been much of an issue in the last year. i think flight design in general has come to the realization that training is an issue in this design and has done a better job.

[artp]

you do have a tendency to transfer the problems between you and your dealership to flight design in general and it leads to accusations that are not accurate overall.

i added a cht guage to my ctsw, and realize that it is far from essential equipment so no i would "side against you" if you flew with it inopperative.

Since Flight Design requires all warranty work in my region to go to that one dealer, that seems to place responsibility for my dealers performance on Flight Design, unless you accept the logic that I bought from a dealer not Flight Design and Flight Design has no responsibility for the warranty..

As for the CHT, according to my Rotax Operators Manual I must make an engine log book entry whenever the CHT goes into the red, that would imply for my plane, at least, the CHT is required. In any case, since on the Dynon EMS D120, CHT alarms cannot be disabled seperately I have to operate with all engine alarms disabled (oil temperature, oil pressure, EGT, ...). That seems like a bad idea to me.

[Super Cub]

Art,
Do you currently have an appointment scheduled for the dealer to address your problems?

[Cub flyer]

Yep rate of accidents went way down per hours flown. Better training and tail redesign, airframe improvements are all helpful.

The CTLS has the advantage of some wind tunnel testing full size and will probably be the best of the bunch for handling.


Another source of trouble here in Art's case is the instruments and avionics are outside vendors. Not FD parts.

Auto companies make their own engines, brakes, wheels, radios, seats etc.

Airplanes are parts warehouses flying in formation. Who do you call with questions.

On normal category airplanes I call the equipment manufacturer, A mechanic installs and removes the part. The equipment manufacturer repairs it and we reinstall. Airplane owner pays the fee to remove, trouble shoot and install. Manufacturer fixes the part under warranty usually.

Same for problems with Lycoming engines. Cessna won't fix those but the owner would pay to remove and install the engine.

Airplane manufacturer has nothing to do with it. But in the CT case they have a warranty covering the whole airplane.

It's kind of a grey area because until LSA there were very few new airplanes around except homebuilts.

[artp]

Art,
Do you currently have an appointment scheduled for the dealer to address your problems?

When the parts finally arrived on 04/21 the dealer told me he could not give me an appointment until 05/07. Hopefully the weather will permit flying then or I could have to wait another 2 to 3 weeks.

[CTflyer]

artp: "When the parts finally arrived on 04/21 the dealer told me he could not give me an appointment until 05/07. Hopefully the weather will permit flying then or I could have to wait another 2 to 3 weeks."

Just a general question: if a new plane needs service and/or parts under warranty, does the dealer (or dealer's appointed agent) come to fix the plane? Or do you have to somehow get the plane to the dealer? (the latter seems it would be a major hassle if the plane is not legal to fly)

Thanks.
Tom

[artp]

Just a general question: if a new plane needs service and/or parts under warranty, does the dealer (or dealer's appointed agent) come to fix the plane? Or do you have to somehow get the plane to the dealer? (the latter seems it would be a major hassle if the plane is not legal to fly)

I can't answer the question of what happens if the plane cannot be flown, but if it is legal to fly it is the owners responsibility to get it to the service center. Even that can be a major hassel with a plane like the CTsw which is VFR and according to the POH can't be operated if ground winds exceed 21 knots (any direction the demonstrated crosswind capability is 13 knots).

[rfane]

according to the POH can't be operated if ground winds exceed 21 knots (any direction the demonstrated crosswind capability is 13 knots).

Art,

Can you please scan your POH to show this. This is at least the second time you have said this, and it's flat out wrong. My POH states that Flight Operations "should" be suspended with winds in excess of 21 knots, not that the plane can't be operated.

Have you contacted Tom Peghiny or Ken Godin at Flight Design USA regarding your dealer? You bash Flight Design alot, but have they ignored your complaints, or is your issue confined to the dealer? My experience with the Flight Design personnel, has been stellar. John Dunham at Flight Design West is incredible. He responds to my emails right away, has parts sent immediately, offers additional training in his airplane, has dropped everything at an open house to look at a sensor issue on my bird, etc. The guy bends over backwards to keep us happy.

Tom Peghiny from FD USA and Oliver Reinhardt from Germany are great guys as well. Tom was at that open house as well, and came to look over the issue I had. Tom, Oliver, and John, all attended the CT Fly-In last year, and I know that John and Ken Godin will be there this year as well.

[artp]

Can you please scan your POH to show this. This is at least the second time you have said this, and it's flat out wrong. My POH states that Flight Operations "should" be suspended with winds in excess of 21 knots, not that the plane can't be operated.

You are splitting hairs. The POH says operations should be suspended. Yes that means I can ignore the advice and put myself and my passenger at risk but that seems like a poor decision for a responsible pilot. If a manufacturer tells me I should do something I do it. While you might be able to use the word "should" to aviod criminal penalities, I doubt it would free you from civil or moral responsibility for any resulting mishap.