Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).
CZAW (Czech Aircraft Works) was the first company in 2006, they were run into the ground by Chip Erwin and restructured in 2008-2009 and became CSA (Czech Sport Aircraft). They have operated as CSA until February 2020 apparently. They have once again changed their name to Czech Aircraft Group to run from their creditors.
BRM Aero (Bristell) wants nothing to do with Czech Aircraft Group, we were told this directly by the son of the owner of BRM Aero. A SportCruiser owner over on our forum had the same thought and emailed Martin Bristela and asked the same thing.....here's Martin's response:
Dear Mike,
thank you very much in trust with our company.
Your Idea is not so bad but the CSA dont have any assets, they dont have any realty or workshop. So this is all only trickery. And we dont want to have any connection with this people or company.
Thank
Best Regards Martin Bristela
CSA was going after the trainer market but several schools kept breaking them, they are not the best trainer despite what the company says.
Sales have fallen off a cliff since 2016 and only getting worse by the month.
Add to that the complete lack of customer support and you end up where they are now, basically bankrupt, morally and financially.
It's an amazing airplane and I love my SportCruiser but the company, they basically suck.
fatsportpilot wrote:So is CZAW proper gone and replaced with something new? That's a shame because they always made good aircraft even if the Bristell is better. If they backed BRM Aero instead and merged then maybe they could get the price down and manufacturing up instead of just trying to change their own name and trying to keep going on their own. They are pretty much the same design so it'd make sense.
I'm kind of surprised that CZAW was even doing bad because their planes are well designed and pretty popular trainers. Were they just selling for way too low or did something else bleed their money away?
They have been around but surprisingly, according to the article about the bankruptcy, they sold only something around 600 planes - compare that to Flight Design with 2000+ planes or even Aeroprakt with 1100+ planes.
fatsportpilot wrote:Other SLSA companies have sold lesser numbers but stay in business so I think CZAW/CSA/CAW must be doing something specific wrong.
It is just a tough business to be in - Flight Design went bankrupt at least once, Remos is now on what amounts to life support , Evektor haven’t sold a single plane in the US in the last 3 years etc etc ...
I don’t quite agree with ShawnM assertion about a great plane being made by a shitty company - to me this sounds like a contradiction, unless we are talking about completely different people now attempting to sell a plane designed by a different team.
fatsportpilot wrote:Other SLSA companies have sold lesser numbers but stay in business so I think CZAW/CSA/CAW must be doing something specific wrong.
Yup, it's called "customer support". Or I should say the lack thereof.
Warmi wrote:I don’t quite agree with ShawnM assertion about a great plane being made by a shitty company - to me this sounds like a contradiction, unless we are talking about completely different people now attempting to sell a plane designed by a different team.
My comments about the company are based on 7 years of experience as an owner of a SportCruiser. To be a successful company you have to support your product and more importantly support your customers. Remember, it it wasn't for those customers you wouldn't have a business. They simply do not support their customers, period. This is why it is my opinion the company "sucks".
And luckily you don't have to agree with my opinion, it's mine and you of course have your own and I respect that.
For a company with such a great airplane they simply lack innovation. There have been no real, major changes to the plane in over a decade, yes, over a decade. Unless you count the new headrests on the seats. Oh, and you can have any engine you want in a SportCruiser as long as it's a 912ULS.
fatsportpilot wrote:
No wonder Piper dropped them.
That's not why at all. As I understand it, the Piper CEO who penned the deal with CAW was fired by his Board of Directors one year later. Seems they didn't share his vision that LSAs were the coming thing. They decided to install a new CEO, who put all the company's resources into development of the PiperJet.
Just one year after that, the PiperJet project was itself scuttled, and that CEO was fired. Would you call that justice, or just the way corporate America works?
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV [email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
fatsportpilot wrote:
No wonder Piper dropped them.
That's not why at all. As I understand it, the Piper CEO who penned the deal with CAW was fired by his Board of Directors one year later. Seems they didn't share his vision that LSAs were the coming thing. They decided to install a new CEO, who put all the company's resources into development of the PiperJet.
Just one year after that, the PiperJet project was itself scuttled, and that CEO was fired. Would you call that justice, or just the way corporate America works?
Also, Piper and CSA didn't have the same vision and it was a rocky marriage at best. CSA wasn't about to let us Americans tell them how to run their company or what changes the plane needed to be a successful Piper product in an already crowded LSA market.
Sadly for CSA they wouldn't listen to Piper and it was to their own detriment. The 2010 model was the only year they were badged as a "PiperSport" and to this day the best selling year ever for sales. There are more registered 2010 "PiperSports" in the FAA database than any other year of the SportCruiser from 2006 to today. The next closest year was 2007 and it was still only half of what it was in 2010. The name "Piper" carried with it some serious clout and name recognition but CSA was too stupid to see that and get out of their own way. Now after running the company into the ground a second time they have changed the name yet again and will give it another go only to, sadly, fail again in short time.
It takes innovation and a vision for the future along with great customer service and support to make it in the LSA market, along with a mind for business and millions of dollars and CSA has none of these.
fatsportpilot wrote:
No wonder Piper dropped them.
That's not why at all. As I understand it, the Piper CEO who penned the deal with CAW was fired by his Board of Directors one year later. Seems they didn't share his vision that LSAs were the coming thing. They decided to install a new CEO, who put all the company's resources into development of the PiperJet.
Just one year after that, the PiperJet project was itself scuttled, and that CEO was fired. Would you call that justice, or just the way corporate America works?
That's a lot more clear than all the speculation I saw everywhere. That's a real shame because I think Piper would have done a lot better than Cessna at entering the market since they had a design that was already established (and not made in China).
It is a pretty plane with great handling and the only similar plane is twice the price so it totally bummed me out.
Last edited by fatsportpilot on Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
fatsportpilot wrote:
No wonder Piper dropped them.
That's not why at all. As I understand it, the Piper CEO who penned the deal with CAW was fired by his Board of Directors one year later. Seems they didn't share his vision that LSAs were the coming thing. They decided to install a new CEO, who put all the company's resources into development of the PiperJet.
Just one year after that, the PiperJet project was itself scuttled, and that CEO was fired. Would you call that justice, or just the way corporate America works?
Also, Piper and CSA didn't have the same vision and it was a rocky marriage at best. CSA wasn't about to let us Americans tell them how to run their company or what changes the plane needed to be a successful Piper product in an already crowded LSA market.
Sadly for CSA they wouldn't listen to Piper and it was to their own detriment. The 2010 model was the only year they were badged as a "PiperSport" and to this day the best selling year ever for sales. There are more registered 2010 "PiperSports" in the FAA database than any other year of the SportCruiser from 2006 to today. The next closest year was 2007 and it was still only half of what it was in 2010. The name "Piper" carried with it some serious clout and name recognition but CSA was too stupid to see that and get out of their own way. Now after running the company into the ground a second time they have changed the name yet again and will give it another go only to, sadly, fail again in short time.
It takes innovation and a vision for the future along with great customer service and support to make it in the LSA market, along with a mind for business and millions of dollars and CSA has none of these.
I see a whole lot of PiperSports selling on Trade-A-Plane and they're priced low so I had considered buying one but I assumed it was because they flopped like the 162 and people were just selling unsupported and useless planes. I also hear though that older SportCruiser/PiperSport were better built and faster than the newer ones but never put much thought into it.
You may see many PiperSports for sale because 2010 was the highest production year for the plane. That's all, no other reason. They never flopped, as I said earlier the 2010 PiperSport was the best selling model year for the SportCruiser ever. Double that of the second highest production year, 2007.
The older, legacy SportCruisers, 2007-2009 were lighter and faster than the years that followed. I consistently cruise at 118 knots true at 5300 rpm. I can easily see 125 knots true at 5500 rpm at just 5-6 thousand feet. They got heavier and slower as the years progressed. Some of the newest planes are at the max gross BEW for LSA aircraft. It's basically a single pilot aircraft if you put in a lot of fuel.
If you are in the market for one the best aircraft are the legacy ones and then convert to experimental. You can then upgrade any outdated or discontinued avionics for the latest gear and have an amazing SportCruiser for 1/3 the cost of a new one. There are currently four 2006 SportCruisers registered but I wouldn't buy one of those.
There is a beautiful example of a SportCruiser on Trade-a-plane right now. It's a 2008 with 402 hours. This plane is gorgeous and already registered as experimental. The hard part is done, it just needs some updated avionics. PS, I am not affiliated in any way with this plane, it's just the cleanest one I've seen for sale in awhile for under $70K and that's just the asking price.
If you ever consider one again let me know. I'd be glad to help in any way I can. I have owned mine for 7 years and know every inch of these planes and can find any pitfalls or problem with one. Register it as an experimental and you'll have a very nice LSA.
ShawnM wrote:If you ever consider one again let me know. I'd be glad to help in any way I can. I have owned mine for 7 years and know every inch of these planes and can find any pitfalls or problem with one. Register it as an experimental and you'll have a very nice LSA.
Wonderful! I am still in the process of finding a plane to buy instead of just renting and if you think the PiperSport and earlier era planes are good then I could see myself buying one maybe putting a new engine in it (a cheap airplane with steam gauges I would probably do Jabiru 3300 if it fit).
Very interesting read and good points made by all. As a long-time SportCruiser owner, I find Shawn’s insights to be most credible. As I have discovered over many years as a former military pilot, government flight representative, in-depth experience with the commercial aviation industry and multi-time experimental aircraft builder, nothing compares to hands-on, operational performance observations. Those who insert themselves into the business side of the equation with myopic profiteering interests, usually have very little good to offer. All too often, sadly they end up making an otherwise viable product merely a race to the bottom with stories like CZAW. Sure, the numbers (financials) are Important but the aircraft “ility” numbers are what make or break the venture. Operability, reliability, maintainability, sustainability, serviceability, and affordability. Holistically and none more important than the next. The bean-counters who get these priorities screwed up, and especially those who make attempts to increase market-share, overly slash costs and quality to attract and expand their customer-base end up compromising everything that is Most important in the unforgiving environment of aviation. Just as senior executives did on the 737 MAX with MCAS. Greed for revenue and overly-high profit margins ended up killing lots of people needlessly. And taking the company with it as well as the livelihoods of good employee and our reputation as a leader in the aviation industry.
I like to do a lot of research. Aviation has been my life. Every waking movement, every breath I take. Above the Mach, on the edge but never over the operating envelope, trying to squeeze a couple extra knots out of an experimental with a transition faring mod to the best the LSA market has to offer. Comfortably retired with no allegiance one make or design over the other. Simply what is the best in every every category. Whether that be the legendary F-4 Phantom, the C-130, the P-51, the SU-27, the RV-8, the 737, the Hughes 500 or an ultraLight. In the LSA category, I have done and continue to do a tremendous amount of research since it’s inception. First one I decide on trying my hand at was the Zenith 601XL with a Jabiru 3300 in 2004. Finished the build project and AW inspection signed off, flight test phase completed. Not a bad little machine. Loved unrestricted view of the bubble canopy. The Jabiru 3300, not so much. Too temperature sensitive, not robust enough for the aviation market, always tinkering with it and overall, just not satisfied. In general, for regular folks like me that just enjoy putting around in the GA world, stick with the knowns. I run an XP-IO-360 (better/superior tech/Q affordable alternative to a Lyc) and for an LSA, the tried and true Rotax. Unless you just enjoy going off the beaten path and don’t mind playing around with the engine more than you do playing around in the sky. Sad to see Sportcrusier’s troubles. Even if it’s the business dweebs inserting themselves in between the transaction in an attempt at big $$$$$ and not the aircraft, what stands behind the aircraft is as important if not more so than the aircraft itself. Not too difficult to read the tea-leaves in this area too. A little research on the decisions made and who is making them is very revealing on whether or not you can expect service after the sale as Shawn points out being very important. Whether the hobble through this one or not, CZAW/CAW/CSA/Piper/Cessna or any other name, with this kind of reputation, it’s still really just going to be a 4-letter word for anyone who goes with them from this point on if the survive. If they don’t, there are viable alternatives out there. As I said, I’m constantly reviewing everything aviation related. In the AMB/EXP and LSA realm, every month I anxiously await my issues of SportPilot and KitPlanes as a FL500 view of what to dig into with more research. For many years I’d been contemplating what was the next LSA to be added to my best in category list. I had narrowed it down to the SportCruiser, the RV-12 and the lesser known Viper SD4. I’d been watching Viper in the European ULS market space. Hoping they would enter the LSA field in the US. Of course, they ultimately did. A little later than the others but I’ve always got my eye on the golden nugget even if others can’t see it. SportCruiser was appealing but pretty typical of my Zodiac. Not bad but just not what I’d want with my “ilities” qualifiers. The marketing folks and the day-by-day traders were indications of the decision-makers behind the machine that did not impress me. The RV-12? Yeah, ok. With Van’s reputation behind it, I always knew it would be a player. However, many of my fellow-builders/flyers had gotten into it and it wasn’t everything it could have or should have been. With the successive advent of the RV-9, RV-10, RV-12 and RV-14, I could see that Vans was loosing the sight-picture. Nothing like the glory-days of the RV-4, RV-6 and RV-8. Nah, the RV-12 was stale at best, visually unappealing like one of those big-eyed goldfish and too many of those indications that told me there’s a lot going on behind the scenes that has less to do with the aircraft than a marketing strategy to sell the aircraft. An aircraft should be able to sell itself without excessive involvement from the non-value-added folks just trying to make a quick buck. Whether that’s selling aircraft or hamburgers doesn’t matter to them.
So, last winter as the snow and cold weather moved into the Pacific NW, my flying partner and I were wanting to take a break and head somewhere where it was warmer. She’s a little chihuahua-mix rescue who loyally and happily goes everywhere with me. Tractor, boat, plane, truck, motorcycle, doesn’t matter. As long as we’re together, were both happy. Just the way it is when your retired and life’s true joys and real priorities become apparent. The 3-Fs of family, friends and flying. I’d previously made contact with Eagle Aircraft (eagleaircrafts.com) to inquire about the Viper. So I thought it would be nice to head down to the warm temperatures of southern Florida and also check out their assembly facilities, the SD4, their maintenance and training services. We flew down and the owner, Adrian was incredibly accommodating. Facility tours, boot-on-the-ground look at the back shops, talking with their expert maintainers, instructors and staff. Incredibly professional outfit, by the book, customer-service oriented, upholding the highest levels of quality, and safety. All overseen by Adrian and his wife, a team who accepts nothing short of perfection. Truly refreshing to see such commitment to impeccable standards that I had not experienced in the US for decades. They even had a couple of low-hour demonstrator aircraft available for sale. Ok Adrian, all well and good but what matters most is how does the Viper SD4 perform in flight? Let’s kick-the-tires and light-the-fires and check her out. Well, back on the ground 1.3 hours later, the grin was ear to ear. Think I finally found “IT”. An LSA that sells itself through demonstrated performance! And a bonus, unlike the others, pretty damned sexy looking at that. Seriously, when you dig deep into the history of the design inception, aircraft development, the record of years of service in the ULS market, state-of-the-art manufacturing processes, the Viper is an amazing story. And, when you have a dedicated family who brings the business into the US LSA market with values and dedication like Eagle Aircraft that we’ve somehow lost over the years in this country, you have a winner that beats the competition hands down.
Went to Florida mostly for a mid-winter break but now it was time to start figuring out how to acquire what I had discovered. After years of research and searching, the decision on “IT” is quite easy for me. Now the only decision was do I go for the kit-option, order new or is there a possibility that one of the 3 demos is the one for me. There was one that was fully equipped to my liking and also had the power-plant I was interested in, the Rotax 912 Turbo. The SD4 performs perfectly fine without the turbo but in the mountainous area around where a live, it’s nice to have the turbo to get you over some of the really high peaks so you don’t have to circumnavigate. One problem, Adrian had previous promised this aircraft to another customer. Ok, it’s under contract. Adrian “No, I just gave him my word”. What? You’re not going to accept a secured sale because of just your “word”? Literally, music to my ears! I have not seen this kind of honor-system in business for decades in this country. Quite the contrary. Despicable, seedy, greedy, contriving folks in business willing to do anything to make a buck. Likely the same kind of folks that run airplanes like the SportCruiser and the 737 MAX into the ground. Just more good news. Sure, I can’t purchase the available aircraft that I’d like to but Eagle Aircraft are the kind of people with business ethics that I love to do business with. People who stand behind their product and honor their word. The chief complaint Shawn has had with his aircraft.
As it turns out, the next day Adrian informs me that he talked with the gentleman who he had promised the aircraft to. He had decided that since he was going to be flying in non-mountainous terrain around Florida, he preferred one of the other aircraft. So we entered into negotiations that day and I asked Adrain if I could do some training flights for proficiency. Training? Another shack for Eagle Aircraft! Some of the most professional instructors I’ve had the pleasure of flying with in 1,000s of hours of all types of flying. At this point my mind started ticking. Having a ton of experience in the USAF Air Training command as well as a test pilot and GFR on the T-1A Jayhawks program, couldn’t help but envision the Viper SD4 as a perfect entry-level military and civilian trainer. Perhaps in the AF Academy’s flight training program. A pre-screener for non-Academy pilot prospects. The SD4 also has a record of being a good glider tow-plane. It could be a versatile, multi-use training platform in many, many applications. As an affordable trainer in civilian schoolhouses. Primary training as well as a high-fidelity, high-tech instrument trainer for aspiring professional aviators to build flight time in as they meet the requirements for their Commercial-Instrument and ATPs. Including an incredibly fun, easy to fly air-vehicle for rental fleets. When I asked Adrian if he had ever considered the Viper SD4 as a military primary trainer, response “Yep, got that version too!”. Spent a few hours at the hotel that evening looking at the configuration and specifications and couldn’t help but think about how my buddies in the training community would loved to help students walk across the graduation stage to pin their wings on or get their new commercial certifications.
So we did the deal on the Viper I really wanted. Eagle made the negotiation and transaction process very fair and painless. Some may ask about the price-points and affordability of this machine. Well, from first hand experience, several hundreds of hours of flight time, service and support after the sale, all I cant tell you is the SD4 is still “IT”! You can find cheaper aircraft in the LSA category but that does not make them more affordable. As I mentioned previously, when someone like Eagle Aircraft figures out the secret-sauce that goes into satisfying all the “ilities”, and can still put the Cadillac of LSAs in your hanger, it is not only more affordable, it’s a heck of a lot more fun flying and your joy of ownership aligns perfectly with the pride that these folks take towards their product and service after that sale.
With Eagle Aircraft and the Viper SD4, the sky is truly the limit!
Congrats on the Viper purchase. I have looked closely at the Viper SD4 and spoke to Adrian in Deland at the LSA expo there. It's a beautiful plane with a lot of "attention to detail" and I've heard that their customer service is really, really good. Something that in my book is paramount in this industry, hell any industry really.
So the one you bought has the 914 turbo? You said 912 turbo but there's no such thing, from Rotax anyway. The one I saw in Deland had the 912is I believe, I wasn't aware they offered the 914. Surely not needed here in Florida but out west it will come in handy getting over those hills out there. The one I saw in Deland was very affordable for a new S-LSA with dual glass panels. It was in the $120K to $130K range if I remember correctly. This was a couple of years ago. Great airplane for sure.
