E/AB buyers guide

[TimTaylor]

That's why I posted my spreadsheet so the OP can insert his own numbers. Just saying it isn't so doesn't help him at all. And again, $1,000 is my recommended budget. Why don't some of you people post some useful information instead of constantly criticizing me.

C-162.xlsx

[TimTaylor]

Here's a spreadsheet I did a while back. You can argue about the individual numbers, but you can get an idea from this. This analysis was for a Cessna SkyCatcher flown 10 hours per month and tied down outside.

C-162.xlsx
I used $1,200 per year for insurance because I have quite a few hours of experience.

Just a reminder of what I posted for the OP.

[ShawnM]

That's why I posted my spreadsheet so the OP can insert his own numbers. Just saying it isn't so doesn't help him at all. And again, $1,000 is my recommended budget. Why don't some of you people post some useful information instead of constantly criticizing me.

C-162.xlsx

And does telling EVERYONE to budget $1000 a month to own and fly an airplane helpful? No as we all know it not to be true for everyone. Also telling people, and I quote "If you can't afford that, don't buy an airplane." How is that helpful? And people wonder why GA is dying. It's because people read negative comments like this and get discouraged. Again, helpful? I think not.

And everyone here is posting useful information that we've learned over the years. Just because you dont agree with anyone does not mean it's not useful info to someone else.

And, I wasn't criticizing you at all, I was just simply telling the OP that YOUR budget is not a one size fits all budget that he should determine his own budget based on his scenario and not assume that he needs $1000 a month like you do. If you took that as criticism then I certainly apologize as that's not what I intended.

[TimTaylor]

I can and will post my advice. The OP is trying to make a very important decision. I have given him a spreadsheet he may want to use as help in calculating his cost. It clearly says this is a SkyCatcher, kept outside, $1200 per year insurance, flown 10 hours per month. He or anyone else can easily input their own figures.

Instead of criticizing me, maybe you could post a detailed analysis of your cost since you actually own and fly an LSA.

[TimTaylor]

For example, how much did you pay for your SportCruiser and where did you get the money? Assuming you paid $70,000 and took the money from an investment making 6 percent, your cost of capital is $350 per month. Add $250 for a cheap hanger and $200 for insurance, you're up to $800 per month already. Just because you may have enough money it doesn't matter, it does matter for many people and is a real cost of owning an airplane.

If I was bound and determined to own another airplane, I could "work" the numbers to make it look like I wanted it to. However, when trying to help someone else, I want to actually help them, not push them toward aircraft ownership.

You can be critical of my approach all you want. That is typical.

[TimTaylor]

Here's one I did for a generic Rotax powered aircraft about 4 years ago. This one assumes a hanger and flying one hour per week.

ROTAX.xlsx

I think this is an example of where the aircraft is not flown enough, so aircraft ownership makes no sense. The fixed cost is too high relative to hours flown. It would make more sense to rent IMHO.

By the way, I got the individual cost elements I have used in these spreadsheets by asking people on this site their opinion of the various costs.

EDIT: And guess what? If I double the flying hours to where aircraft ownership makes sense at $112 per hour, the monthly cost goes to......you guessed it...... $1000.

I'm sticking with my $1,000 per month flying budget recommendation unless you want to own and fly a $15,000 ragwing, tied down outside, probably with no electrical, and no insurance. I don't think that's what the OP has in mind.

[Warmi]

I think that $1000 a month is pretty close to reality , at least for me ...

[3Dreaming]

One of the big variables is hangar. Hangar cost is very different based on location. The closer you are to a major metropolitan area the higher the hangar is going to be. Right now the little airport I'm at in Tennessee is about 60 miles East of Memphis. A hangar is $175 per month. As you move closer to Memphis the rate goes up. At home we are over 100 miles from a major metropolitan area, and our hangar rate is $80 per month. Fuel price is also regional along with maintenance. I suspect that insurance rate is also some what regional, I know for fact that different regional underwriters rate differently.

[FastEddieB]

Here's my 2018 expenses on my 2007 Sky Arrow:



This reflects actual expenses, with no allowance for overhaul reserve, depreciation, or the opportunity cost of what I spent back in 2007 to buy the plane.

Caveat 1: Every 5 or 6 years there's a much larger maintenance cost for rubber parts replacement.

Caveat 2: I only flew 31 hours in 2018, a tad less than other years since I was laid up from minor surgery for a few months.

Caveat 3: With an E-LSA and the LSRM-I ticket I can do my own Annual Condition Inspection, and I don't count the value of the 20 hours or so of my time to perform said annual.

Again, I will stipulate that there is such a thing as "opportunity cost" for the funds I used to buy the plane. But most people do not figure that in when discussing discretionary expenses. Sure, I could have invested that $75.5k at a few percentage points, but then again I could have invested it in a stock that tanked. I think there is "wisdom of the crowd" that we don't typically add the opportunity cost of funds when discussing the cost of things we buy. For a corporation buying a $10 million dollar jet, of course its a real thing. For most of us little guys, we just don't count it - one way or another the funds used to buy the plane would have been spent on something, so there's no point in worrying about what that cash might have generated if invested.

But this is a recurring debate, and Tim will make the case that we should always add in "opportunity cost". In spite of the fact that virtually nobody does.

[ShawnM]

But this is a recurring debate, and Tim will make the case that we should always add in "opportunity cost". In spite of the fact that virtually nobody does.

Oh boy, dont get him started again. Cost will vary geographically for everyone whether he believes it or not as many have pointed out. And thanks for the data that supports my theory that it doesn't cost everyone $1000 a month to own and fly.

[Warmi]

One of the big variables is hangar. Hangar cost is very different based on location. The closer you are to a major metropolitan area the higher the hangar is going to be. Right now the little airport I'm at in Tennessee is about 60 miles East of Memphis. A hangar is $175 per month. As you move closer to Memphis the rate goes up. At home we are over 100 miles from a major metropolitan area, and our hangar rate is $80 per month. Fuel price is also regional along with maintenance. I suspect that insurance rate is also some what regional, I know for fact that different regional underwriters rate differently.

Yes , since I am relatively close to Chicago ( although still managed to avoid living in the Crook county ) my hangar costs are pretty high , at around $3700 per year.
Assuming I fly a lot ( which is the point ) then costs of fuel will be another $3000. Then there is my insurance which is about $1700, since I am a total newb- these are my big ticket items but of course there is always other costs - so in my case budgeting conservatively for about $1000 a month is not an unreasonable proposition.

[drseti]

So Eddie, it appears that for 2018, your operating costs came to $177 per flight hour. At low usage levels, it's always cheaper to rent. But all financial analysis ignores the intangible benefits of aircraft ownership.

Seldom discussed are the safety benefits of being the only user of your aircraft - you always know exactly how it's been flown and maintained. You know its flight charcteristics well. It's always available whenever you want it. And, it can be equipped exactly the way you want it.

There's an active flying club on my field. There are 15 member/owners, only 5 of whom fly regularly. They recently upgraded their avionics, and had a big debate over the costs. (Guess which ten members voted against ADS-B?) The whole thing is akin to a Mormon marriage. Hell, I have enough trouble keeping one spouse happy!

[ShawnM]

So Eddie, it appears that for 2018, your operating costs came to $177 per flight hour. At low usage levels, it's always cheaper to rent. But all financial analysis ignores the intangible benefits of aircraft ownership.

Seldom discussed are the safety benefits of being the only user of your aircraft - you always know exactly how it's been flown and maintained. You know its flight charcteristics well. It's always available whenever you want it. And, it can be equipped exactly the way you want it.

There's an active flying club on my field. There are 15 member/owners, only 5 of whom fly regularly. They recently upgraded their avionics, and had a big debate over the costs. (Guess which ten members voted against ADS-B?) The whole thing is akin to a Mormon marriage. Hell, I have enough trouble keeping one spouse happy!

Well said Paul, there are many other benefits to owning your own aircraft that you can't put a price on. We decide to own because of these many benefits regardless of the cost because it's our passion and you can't put a price on happiness. To me renting an aircraft comes with its own set of inherent dangers as you know nothing about the aircraft even if you think you fly it on a regular basis. My plane is exactly the way I left it and she's always ready to go when I want to fly, priceless.

[FastEddieB]

So Eddie, it appears that for 2018, your operating costs came to $177 per flight hour.

Thanks.

I was going to do that division and you saved me the trouble. Yes, the fixed costs can tear you up with low usage. "We need to fly more!" is a common refrain around the Benson household.

As you know, we just finished our hangar/home in Lenoir City, TN. I had not thought about it at the time, but it makes sense to give up our Copperhill hangar, with runs $250 a month. We're in the middle of moving everything up to our new home and will be out of the old hangar by the end of next month, saving $3,000/yr plus utilities. So from then on $0 for hangar rent! Yay! If you ignore what it cost to build our hangar/home, of course! Which I know Tim won't let me do!

As an aside, depreciation can be hard to figure. I owned a Grumman Tiger from 1992 to 2003 and sold it for roughly twice what I had paid for it, albeit with a bunch invested in a panel upgrade. But used Light Sports may do fine on that front given the rapidly increasing cost of buying new. The market for used Sky Arrows is razor thin but with a new one selling for roughly double what I paid for mine, I might have little or no depreciation if and when I decide to sell.

[TimTaylor]

Unfortunately, I don't have $75,000 cash in my sock drawer. All of my money is invested in stocks and bonds. My wife's money is in stocks. These investments are making 6 percent average over time. This is money we plan to use to finance our retirement or leave for our children.
If I ever purchase another airplane, I will liquidate some of these investments to raise the cash to purchase the airplane. When I do this, I will be giving up the future earnings of this money. It is a real cost for some of us. I realize some of you are wealthy and can afford to ignore this. I cannot and neither can some others here.

You can choose to not count this discretionary income if you want, but unless you have a sock drawer full of cash, it is an actual and real cost of buying an airplane or anything else you may choose to buy. Just because someone here or everyone here chooses to ignore it, it doesn't go away. Alternatively, you could finance your aircraft purchase, but then the interest would be a cost that should be included. It's one or the other.

Also, 5 year rubber replacement, engine reserve, and aircraft depreciation are real cost that MUST be included to answer the question of "how much does it cost you to own and operate an aircraft." You WILL incur these cost someday, even if you sell the aircraft before they come due. They will reduce the value of your airplane.

I am not here to persuade anyone to purchase or not purchase an airplane. I am trying to represent the true cost of aircraft ownership for the OP. He can choose which cost to include or ignore for himself. I'm sorry I can't do this without all the personal attacks I receive for trying to do that. I also realize there are many other pros and cons to aircraft ownership vs rental vs not flying. I have owned 3 airplanes and understand all of that.

And thanks Eddie for speaking for me, but please let me speak for myself. And thank you ShawnM for your kind words.

In fairness, I should add that opportunity cost is a real cost that should be included when evaluating a purchase. Once you have made the purchase, it is sunk money and not something you would worry about unless you are evaluating selling the asset and deploying the cash elsewhere.