Limit to 120 KCAS at sea level only with custom EMS - still an LSA?

[drseti]

GA should operate like the automotive industry.

Ah, but the automotive industry has one advantage that GA will never enjoy: massive economies of scale.

[Warmi]

GA should operate like the automotive industry.

Ah, but the automotive industry has one advantage that GA will never enjoy: massive economies of scale.

That is true unfortunately but ... I was talking from the regulatory point of view.

[3Dreaming]

When the original sport pilot rules went into effect the FAA was adamant that an airplane that had previously been certified at a weight above 1320 could not be re certified at 1320.

And not just "could not be." Could never be.

Actually it is not that it couldn't be certified at 1320, but that it could never be a light sport aircraft

[3Dreaming]

GA should operate like the automotive industry.

Ah, but the automotive industry has one advantage that GA will never enjoy: massive economies of scale.

That is true unfortunately but ... I was talking from the regulatory point of view.

I'm pretty sure the automotive industry has some pretty significant regulations that they have to follow.

[drseti]

Actually it is not that it couldn't be certified at 1320, but that it could never be a light sport aircraft

Point taken.

[Warmi]

Ah, but the automotive industry has one advantage that GA will never enjoy: massive economies of scale.

That is true unfortunately but ... I was talking from the regulatory point of view.

I'm pretty sure the automotive industry has some pretty significant regulations that they have to follow.

They do but that’s not what I am talking about.

We could be arguing here all night long but why ... just go to any automotive forum and see the type discussions they are having - it is is all about... should I do this and how do I do this, none of the regulatory “how many FAA angels can fit on the head of a pin” we see discussed here and on other ga aviation forums.

[MrMorden]

The 120kt CAS limit is a limit for *manufacturers* to design to, not for pilots to abide by. Once an airplane is accepted by the FAA as an LSA, you as a pilot can wring whatever performance out of it that you can. If the aircraft type regularly and easily exceeds LSA performance limits, that's a problem between the FAA and the manufacturer, and the pilot need not be concerned at all (unless the FAA revokes the LSA designation for all existing airframes of that type...but then you have a pretty nice lawsuit against the manufacturer).

[fatsportpilot]

The 120kt CAS limit is a limit for *manufacturers* to design to, not for pilots to abide by. Once an airplane is accepted by the FAA as an LSA, you as a pilot can wring whatever performance out of it that you can. If the aircraft type regularly and easily exceeds LSA performance limits, that's a problem between the FAA and the manufacturer, and the pilot need not be concerned at all (unless the FAA revokes the LSA designation for all existing airframes of that type...but then you have a pretty nice lawsuit against the manufacturer).

I'm pretty sure sport pilots can't modify an E-LSA to exceed speed limitations that the pilot also has to obey. Just like a sport pilot can't climb above 10,000 MSL even if the plane has a higher service ceiling.

[Scooper]

I'm pretty sure sport pilots can't modify an E-LSA to exceed speed limitations that the pilot also has to obey. Just like a sport pilot can't climb above 10,000 MSL even if the plane has a higher service ceiling.

Sport Pilots can legally fly up to 10,000 ft MSL, or 2,000 ft AGL, whichever is higher. The FAA doesn't want you to fly into high terrain; it could ruin your day.

[fatsportpilot]

I'm pretty sure sport pilots can't modify an E-LSA to exceed speed limitations that the pilot also has to obey. Just like a sport pilot can't climb above 10,000 MSL even if the plane has a higher service ceiling.

Sport Pilots can legally fly up to 10,000 ft MSL, or 2,000 ft AGL, whichever is higher. The FAA doesn't want you to fly into high terrain; it could ruin your day.

I know. I mentioned that in a post one page ago but I was giving a fast example and didn't think it was necessary to be that specific.

[3Dreaming]

The 120kt CAS limit is a limit for *manufacturers* to design to, not for pilots to abide by. Once an airplane is accepted by the FAA as an LSA, you as a pilot can wring whatever performance out of it that you can. If the aircraft type regularly and easily exceeds LSA performance limits, that's a problem between the FAA and the manufacturer, and the pilot need not be concerned at all (unless the FAA revokes the LSA designation for all existing airframes of that type...but then you have a pretty nice lawsuit against the manufacturer).

I'm pretty sure sport pilots can't modify an E-LSA to exceed speed limitations that the pilot also has to obey. Just like a sport pilot can't climb above 10,000 MSL even if the plane has a higher service ceiling.

There is no speed limit for the pilot! The limit is for the airplane. If the airplane is modified to where it is to fast, then it can no longer be a LSA. If it is no longer a LSA, then it can't be flown by a by a sport pilot.

[drseti]

I'm pretty sure sport pilots can't modify an E-LSA to exceed speed limitations

Not just Sport Pilots. Nobody can modify a E-LSA to exceed the 120 knot Vh limitation, or the 45 knot clean calibrated stall speed limitation, or add a retractable landing gear, or install a third seat, or constant-speed prop, or a second engine, or cabin pressurization, or anything else that would void its Special Airworthiness Certificate. If it's an E-LSA, it has to stay an E-LSA, no matter who is flying it.

[ShawnM]

I guess as long as there are rules to follow someone will be out there trying to circumnavigate those rules. If 120 kts isn't fast enough for you then go get your private pilot rating and buy a Mooney or something even faster.

[3Dreaming]

I'm pretty sure sport pilots can't modify an E-LSA to exceed speed limitations

Not just Sport Pilots. Nobody can modify a E-LSA to exceed the 120 knot Vh limitation, or the 45 knot clean calibrated stall speed limitation, or add a retractable landing gear, or install a third seat, or constant-speed prop, or a second engine, or cabin pressurization, or anything else that would void its Special Airworthiness Certificate. If it's an E-LSA, it has to stay an E-LSA, no matter who is flying it.

Actually I'm pretty sure that a ELSA could be modified with any of those items. It of course could no longer be a ELSA, but it could be changed to experimental exhibition.

[drseti]

Actually I'm pretty sure that a ELSA could be modified with any of those items. It of course could no longer be a ELSA, but it could be changed to experimental exhibition.

I think Experimental R&D is a possibility. Maybe even Experimental Exhibition. Both of those come with significant operating limitations. Certainly could no longer be an E-LSA (or any other kind of LSA). I doubt it could be approved by a DAR for an E-AB airworthiness certificate, unless it was completely disassembled down to raw materials, rebuilt from the ground up, and a proper build log generated. But, if you're going to do all that, why not just start from scratch?