The RV-12 SLSA acquisition process.
Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:05 am
Jack suggested I write a bit about the process I went through acquiring the Vans RV-12 SLSA.
Having done a lot of personal research, including asking a LOT of questions on this site, and receiving invaluable information, I attended the 2014 Light Sport Expo at Sebring.
I tried to get a demo on the RV-12 but due to a couple of problems didn't get one. However, I did get a close up look with the plane they brought to deliver to a new owner in Florida.
I engaged in conversation with a "Vans rep" whom I later discovered was Wally Anderson (?) who runs Synergy at Eugene OR the company contracted by Vans to build the LSAs. He was very patient and provided a lot of information.
I was somewhat skeptical of the RV-12 at the time thinking it looked somewhat 'kit-like'. This might sound silly but I was also looking at Tecnams and Flight Designs which have composite structures and more sophistication ( in some ways). On the other hand those planes were built to do a bigger mission than the one I had and were also more expensive in the order of 40-50% more.
I had a short list of LSAs and went through it but at each step there was some issue or problem that took it off the table. With the RV-12 I felt I just had to fly it to give it a fair shot and so I contacted Mitch Lock ,the East Coast rep for Vans, and arranged a demo flight.
Mitch is very laid back and instead of just blasting off and fly we sat in his hangar and talked planes, and the RV-12 in particular. Mitch is an experienced builder as well as an accomplished LSA pilot. He had 2 planes to choose from, the one he'd built and a more recent addition, the SLSA prototype that was fitted with duel Garmin GX 3 Touch EFIS. I chose the prototype because it was closest to what I was looking for and might buy.
My 'mission' is…a small, easy to handle plane in terms of getting it out of the hangar on my own, easy to operate, and fairly uncomplicated to get ready to fly, and then put away. I might take the 2 day maintenance course for extra knowledge and to do some basic stuff myself, but still have access to qualified maintenance. I wanted to keep the costs as reasonable as possible, from acquisition, to insurance, servicing, and things like fuel and hangaring.
I wanted a plane that I'll probably fly alone most of the time. My wife isn't fond of small planes but would go for short rides…maybe.
The occasional cross-country option is good but I didn't envision doing very many.
The demo with Mitch was excellent. We flew for about an hour and a half, mainly because Mitch was still learning the Garmin Touch. I got to spend a lot of time flying whilst Mitch fiddled with the EFIS. I was pleasantly surprised that it flew so well, was faster, and the low-wing/bubble canopy wasn't bad at all (I'd been focussed mainly on high wing). The view was really good, obviously above but down in front of the wing and sideways too. Actually was better than the high wing planes.
I pretty much decided after the demo that this was the plane that most closely met my needs. I thought about the 'kit-like' finish and felt in the end that it wasn't that bad and that anyway the empty weight in the 750lb area was worth the more sparse interior than adding over 100lbs to the empty weight , and then paying a ton more for it, with the other models I was looking at. Finally, Vans is made in the USA!
Buying was pretty simple. I just called RV-12 Sales and we filled out the order form and I sent in the $5k check to secure a deposit. I opted to have all the options available because I would have bought them all one way or another anyway.
The options included a cover and tow bar for example, why not just get them?
I elected to get the Skyview Touch. At the time the Garmin dual screen option wasn't an option and neither was a dual screen Skyview. As I write Vans have just announced that dual Skyviews are coming this Fall. That's the way it is, especially with Vans, there is always something else coming. However, the capabilities of the Skyview Touch are amazing and since I normally fly alone two would be a $5k extravagance in a way. As it is, as bought the plane was a little over $125, which I think is good considering the FD and Tecnam planes I'd looked at were in the $185 to $195k range. If the second screen runs on its own ADHARS etc then there is definitely try redundancy however I feel this is more of an option suitable to say a flight school.
Vans had choices in delivery slots. They naturally wanted me to fill a couple of gaps closer to the time of purchase but I settled for mid-July which was about 8 weeks out. I needed to provide another $20k deposit at about the time of painting.
Talking of paint, they'll send color chips to decide but you either pic their color or you can buy bare metal and paint it yourself. I wasn't that worried about the scheme but I elected the black, red and silver…because t was the only option that has the silver. All others have white and I'm a bit tired of white! The black scheme ended up just like the model at Sebring that was being delivered to a new owner (and which is for sale on Barnstormers right now!).
I chose the auto-pilot because having tried it on Mitch's plane I found it to be unexpectedly capable although it's still a small plane with two servos and in turn it has trouble keeping up with the trim in turbulence but then I'd hand fly more anyway. It does give you break on longer trips. Get it now, as it'd be harder to add later.
The knob panel I added because I found the I'd be using it all the time, and I have. The items on the panel are higher use and that is true. I can select them by touching the screen or cursor, but I still find it easier this way.
The autopilot panel is much easier to finesse in flight that using the screen, in my view, and so I opted for it.
One point here…with the Vans RV-12 you can only have these panels mounted vertically due to wiring and panel space. Even though its advertised as being available vertically or horizontally. It's not a problem for me, but vertical is the only option.
I asked about the new throttle springs since Mitch has the new (in test) vernier throttle, and throttle springs. I was supposed to get them but the batch was faulty and now I'll have to retro-fit when they come in.
The new throttle is 'in engineering' as is the new split panel at the rear of the cockpit, which when included prevents removing the fuel tank at annual to inspect the rear inside fuselage.
To be fair 'in engineering' also means 'waiting for the Feds to do the approval and paperwork'.
The throttle is a pain in the butt to me. The springs are too strong so you fly with the friction lock almost full on and I had a sore hand most of the way home from Vans. If you loosen it a tad in the pattern it'll creep up on you and you'll be holding a little power in when you thought it was at idle! The new vernier throttle is the 'fix'. Coming soon.
Ordering was simple really, I just ordered all the options. The basic plane is $115k. I ordered fairings, ADSB, a/p, Skyview Touch, the knob and a/p panel and if you order all them as the package you save $600. I ordered the cover, tow bar etc too I couldn't see why I'd order the basic plane.
I found vans Sales responsive WHEN I contacted THEM but don't find them to be pro-active. Partly, this is because the sales team are at Synergy who build the SLSA at Eugene, versus established Vans who are foremost a kit maker who recently has started making a few planes from the kits. My impression is that Vans is a airplane kit maker. Most of their building is made up of folks making and stacking parts. Now, recently, they have a few that are actually planes and so a bit of a curiosity to some, seeing the actual product. There are tours going through and a few demo flights.
Vans are extremely low-key and will answer you but don't expect the slick show-room sales person either. On the one hand this is good because who needs another layer of BS these days, on the other though I think they lack a co-ordinator who can pro-actively stay in tough with you throughout the process.
For me, this meant trying to get out of them the day when I'd be able to take delivery which I needed because I was trying to make a plan to fly out book a hotel and fly the plane home to SC, an almost 3000 mile trip over 5 days. To be fair, they're waiting for the FAA DAR to arrive to do the final airworthiness check and so didn't want to be specific. Needless to say it was frustrating though.
At Aurora prepare to be underwhelmed, as I said before, this is a kit factory, with a couple of older RVs and the new plane and the trainer. No big-whoop sales dept!
I did a couple of hours with Jose, a local instructor, in their SLSA, because mine wasn't ready. When I was I was checked out but I wanted at least an hour in my own plane and that's what I got.I paid Jose for the time over the 2 hours included. They include 2 hours of transition training in the purchase price and I asked Jose for more plus a short cross country so we could play with the autopilot and the Skyview which i found invaluable.
Deliveries seem to be on a Friday so my plane was ready to go Saturday am and vans was closed for the week-end so don't expect a crowd to wave you off! Just kidding. Why not do it on a Monday/Tuesday so if you encounter an issue going home, they're at work to help? Just saying.
So basically that was the process for me. I stayed at Holiday Inn, Wilsonville. They were great and had an on-demand shuttle to Aurora Jet Center right next door to Vans. They work with corporate crews at the Jet Center who would have rented me a car for $34 per day. Don't rent from PDX as it's much higher and a one-way drop off. There is a lady I used who picked me up at PDX and drove me to the hotel for $55, and is the person the Jet center uses. Call Jet center for details and a number.
Holiday Inn was one of the best hotels I've used lately and with the Jet Center rate of $94 per night I got a great free breakfast each day included, and it was excellent.
Aurora Jet center were great to me so I bought gas there but they war super helpful and provided cold water, snacks and wi-fi way beyond what I deserved by only buying a half tank of gas.
Anyway, hope this helps anyone who is contemplating being a new Vans RV-12 SLSA.
Having done a lot of personal research, including asking a LOT of questions on this site, and receiving invaluable information, I attended the 2014 Light Sport Expo at Sebring.
I tried to get a demo on the RV-12 but due to a couple of problems didn't get one. However, I did get a close up look with the plane they brought to deliver to a new owner in Florida.
I engaged in conversation with a "Vans rep" whom I later discovered was Wally Anderson (?) who runs Synergy at Eugene OR the company contracted by Vans to build the LSAs. He was very patient and provided a lot of information.
I was somewhat skeptical of the RV-12 at the time thinking it looked somewhat 'kit-like'. This might sound silly but I was also looking at Tecnams and Flight Designs which have composite structures and more sophistication ( in some ways). On the other hand those planes were built to do a bigger mission than the one I had and were also more expensive in the order of 40-50% more.
I had a short list of LSAs and went through it but at each step there was some issue or problem that took it off the table. With the RV-12 I felt I just had to fly it to give it a fair shot and so I contacted Mitch Lock ,the East Coast rep for Vans, and arranged a demo flight.
Mitch is very laid back and instead of just blasting off and fly we sat in his hangar and talked planes, and the RV-12 in particular. Mitch is an experienced builder as well as an accomplished LSA pilot. He had 2 planes to choose from, the one he'd built and a more recent addition, the SLSA prototype that was fitted with duel Garmin GX 3 Touch EFIS. I chose the prototype because it was closest to what I was looking for and might buy.
My 'mission' is…a small, easy to handle plane in terms of getting it out of the hangar on my own, easy to operate, and fairly uncomplicated to get ready to fly, and then put away. I might take the 2 day maintenance course for extra knowledge and to do some basic stuff myself, but still have access to qualified maintenance. I wanted to keep the costs as reasonable as possible, from acquisition, to insurance, servicing, and things like fuel and hangaring.
I wanted a plane that I'll probably fly alone most of the time. My wife isn't fond of small planes but would go for short rides…maybe.
The occasional cross-country option is good but I didn't envision doing very many.
The demo with Mitch was excellent. We flew for about an hour and a half, mainly because Mitch was still learning the Garmin Touch. I got to spend a lot of time flying whilst Mitch fiddled with the EFIS. I was pleasantly surprised that it flew so well, was faster, and the low-wing/bubble canopy wasn't bad at all (I'd been focussed mainly on high wing). The view was really good, obviously above but down in front of the wing and sideways too. Actually was better than the high wing planes.
I pretty much decided after the demo that this was the plane that most closely met my needs. I thought about the 'kit-like' finish and felt in the end that it wasn't that bad and that anyway the empty weight in the 750lb area was worth the more sparse interior than adding over 100lbs to the empty weight , and then paying a ton more for it, with the other models I was looking at. Finally, Vans is made in the USA!
Buying was pretty simple. I just called RV-12 Sales and we filled out the order form and I sent in the $5k check to secure a deposit. I opted to have all the options available because I would have bought them all one way or another anyway.
The options included a cover and tow bar for example, why not just get them?
I elected to get the Skyview Touch. At the time the Garmin dual screen option wasn't an option and neither was a dual screen Skyview. As I write Vans have just announced that dual Skyviews are coming this Fall. That's the way it is, especially with Vans, there is always something else coming. However, the capabilities of the Skyview Touch are amazing and since I normally fly alone two would be a $5k extravagance in a way. As it is, as bought the plane was a little over $125, which I think is good considering the FD and Tecnam planes I'd looked at were in the $185 to $195k range. If the second screen runs on its own ADHARS etc then there is definitely try redundancy however I feel this is more of an option suitable to say a flight school.
Vans had choices in delivery slots. They naturally wanted me to fill a couple of gaps closer to the time of purchase but I settled for mid-July which was about 8 weeks out. I needed to provide another $20k deposit at about the time of painting.
Talking of paint, they'll send color chips to decide but you either pic their color or you can buy bare metal and paint it yourself. I wasn't that worried about the scheme but I elected the black, red and silver…because t was the only option that has the silver. All others have white and I'm a bit tired of white! The black scheme ended up just like the model at Sebring that was being delivered to a new owner (and which is for sale on Barnstormers right now!).
I chose the auto-pilot because having tried it on Mitch's plane I found it to be unexpectedly capable although it's still a small plane with two servos and in turn it has trouble keeping up with the trim in turbulence but then I'd hand fly more anyway. It does give you break on longer trips. Get it now, as it'd be harder to add later.
The knob panel I added because I found the I'd be using it all the time, and I have. The items on the panel are higher use and that is true. I can select them by touching the screen or cursor, but I still find it easier this way.
The autopilot panel is much easier to finesse in flight that using the screen, in my view, and so I opted for it.
One point here…with the Vans RV-12 you can only have these panels mounted vertically due to wiring and panel space. Even though its advertised as being available vertically or horizontally. It's not a problem for me, but vertical is the only option.
I asked about the new throttle springs since Mitch has the new (in test) vernier throttle, and throttle springs. I was supposed to get them but the batch was faulty and now I'll have to retro-fit when they come in.
The new throttle is 'in engineering' as is the new split panel at the rear of the cockpit, which when included prevents removing the fuel tank at annual to inspect the rear inside fuselage.
To be fair 'in engineering' also means 'waiting for the Feds to do the approval and paperwork'.
The throttle is a pain in the butt to me. The springs are too strong so you fly with the friction lock almost full on and I had a sore hand most of the way home from Vans. If you loosen it a tad in the pattern it'll creep up on you and you'll be holding a little power in when you thought it was at idle! The new vernier throttle is the 'fix'. Coming soon.
Ordering was simple really, I just ordered all the options. The basic plane is $115k. I ordered fairings, ADSB, a/p, Skyview Touch, the knob and a/p panel and if you order all them as the package you save $600. I ordered the cover, tow bar etc too I couldn't see why I'd order the basic plane.
I found vans Sales responsive WHEN I contacted THEM but don't find them to be pro-active. Partly, this is because the sales team are at Synergy who build the SLSA at Eugene, versus established Vans who are foremost a kit maker who recently has started making a few planes from the kits. My impression is that Vans is a airplane kit maker. Most of their building is made up of folks making and stacking parts. Now, recently, they have a few that are actually planes and so a bit of a curiosity to some, seeing the actual product. There are tours going through and a few demo flights.
Vans are extremely low-key and will answer you but don't expect the slick show-room sales person either. On the one hand this is good because who needs another layer of BS these days, on the other though I think they lack a co-ordinator who can pro-actively stay in tough with you throughout the process.
For me, this meant trying to get out of them the day when I'd be able to take delivery which I needed because I was trying to make a plan to fly out book a hotel and fly the plane home to SC, an almost 3000 mile trip over 5 days. To be fair, they're waiting for the FAA DAR to arrive to do the final airworthiness check and so didn't want to be specific. Needless to say it was frustrating though.
At Aurora prepare to be underwhelmed, as I said before, this is a kit factory, with a couple of older RVs and the new plane and the trainer. No big-whoop sales dept!
I did a couple of hours with Jose, a local instructor, in their SLSA, because mine wasn't ready. When I was I was checked out but I wanted at least an hour in my own plane and that's what I got.I paid Jose for the time over the 2 hours included. They include 2 hours of transition training in the purchase price and I asked Jose for more plus a short cross country so we could play with the autopilot and the Skyview which i found invaluable.
Deliveries seem to be on a Friday so my plane was ready to go Saturday am and vans was closed for the week-end so don't expect a crowd to wave you off! Just kidding. Why not do it on a Monday/Tuesday so if you encounter an issue going home, they're at work to help? Just saying.
So basically that was the process for me. I stayed at Holiday Inn, Wilsonville. They were great and had an on-demand shuttle to Aurora Jet Center right next door to Vans. They work with corporate crews at the Jet Center who would have rented me a car for $34 per day. Don't rent from PDX as it's much higher and a one-way drop off. There is a lady I used who picked me up at PDX and drove me to the hotel for $55, and is the person the Jet center uses. Call Jet center for details and a number.
Holiday Inn was one of the best hotels I've used lately and with the Jet Center rate of $94 per night I got a great free breakfast each day included, and it was excellent.
Aurora Jet center were great to me so I bought gas there but they war super helpful and provided cold water, snacks and wi-fi way beyond what I deserved by only buying a half tank of gas.
Anyway, hope this helps anyone who is contemplating being a new Vans RV-12 SLSA.