The RV-12 SLSA acquisition process.

[Nomore767]

Jack suggested I write a bit about the process I went through acquiring the Vans RV-12 SLSA.

Having done a lot of personal research, including asking a LOT of questions on this site, and receiving invaluable information, I attended the 2014 Light Sport Expo at Sebring.
I tried to get a demo on the RV-12 but due to a couple of problems didn't get one. However, I did get a close up look with the plane they brought to deliver to a new owner in Florida.
I engaged in conversation with a "Vans rep" whom I later discovered was Wally Anderson (?) who runs Synergy at Eugene OR the company contracted by Vans to build the LSAs. He was very patient and provided a lot of information.
I was somewhat skeptical of the RV-12 at the time thinking it looked somewhat 'kit-like'. This might sound silly but I was also looking at Tecnams and Flight Designs which have composite structures and more sophistication ( in some ways). On the other hand those planes were built to do a bigger mission than the one I had and were also more expensive in the order of 40-50% more.

I had a short list of LSAs and went through it but at each step there was some issue or problem that took it off the table. With the RV-12 I felt I just had to fly it to give it a fair shot and so I contacted Mitch Lock ,the East Coast rep for Vans, and arranged a demo flight.
Mitch is very laid back and instead of just blasting off and fly we sat in his hangar and talked planes, and the RV-12 in particular. Mitch is an experienced builder as well as an accomplished LSA pilot. He had 2 planes to choose from, the one he'd built and a more recent addition, the SLSA prototype that was fitted with duel Garmin GX 3 Touch EFIS. I chose the prototype because it was closest to what I was looking for and might buy.

My 'mission' is…a small, easy to handle plane in terms of getting it out of the hangar on my own, easy to operate, and fairly uncomplicated to get ready to fly, and then put away. I might take the 2 day maintenance course for extra knowledge and to do some basic stuff myself, but still have access to qualified maintenance. I wanted to keep the costs as reasonable as possible, from acquisition, to insurance, servicing, and things like fuel and hangaring.
I wanted a plane that I'll probably fly alone most of the time. My wife isn't fond of small planes but would go for short rides…maybe.
The occasional cross-country option is good but I didn't envision doing very many.

The demo with Mitch was excellent. We flew for about an hour and a half, mainly because Mitch was still learning the Garmin Touch. I got to spend a lot of time flying whilst Mitch fiddled with the EFIS. I was pleasantly surprised that it flew so well, was faster, and the low-wing/bubble canopy wasn't bad at all (I'd been focussed mainly on high wing). The view was really good, obviously above but down in front of the wing and sideways too. Actually was better than the high wing planes.
I pretty much decided after the demo that this was the plane that most closely met my needs. I thought about the 'kit-like' finish and felt in the end that it wasn't that bad and that anyway the empty weight in the 750lb area was worth the more sparse interior than adding over 100lbs to the empty weight , and then paying a ton more for it, with the other models I was looking at. Finally, Vans is made in the USA!

Buying was pretty simple. I just called RV-12 Sales and we filled out the order form and I sent in the $5k check to secure a deposit. I opted to have all the options available because I would have bought them all one way or another anyway.
The options included a cover and tow bar for example, why not just get them?
I elected to get the Skyview Touch. At the time the Garmin dual screen option wasn't an option and neither was a dual screen Skyview. As I write Vans have just announced that dual Skyviews are coming this Fall. That's the way it is, especially with Vans, there is always something else coming. However, the capabilities of the Skyview Touch are amazing and since I normally fly alone two would be a $5k extravagance in a way. As it is, as bought the plane was a little over $125, which I think is good considering the FD and Tecnam planes I'd looked at were in the $185 to $195k range. If the second screen runs on its own ADHARS etc then there is definitely try redundancy however I feel this is more of an option suitable to say a flight school.

Vans had choices in delivery slots. They naturally wanted me to fill a couple of gaps closer to the time of purchase but I settled for mid-July which was about 8 weeks out. I needed to provide another $20k deposit at about the time of painting.
Talking of paint, they'll send color chips to decide but you either pic their color or you can buy bare metal and paint it yourself. I wasn't that worried about the scheme but I elected the black, red and silver…because t was the only option that has the silver. All others have white and I'm a bit tired of white! The black scheme ended up just like the model at Sebring that was being delivered to a new owner (and which is for sale on Barnstormers right now!).

I chose the auto-pilot because having tried it on Mitch's plane I found it to be unexpectedly capable although it's still a small plane with two servos and in turn it has trouble keeping up with the trim in turbulence but then I'd hand fly more anyway. It does give you break on longer trips. Get it now, as it'd be harder to add later.
The knob panel I added because I found the I'd be using it all the time, and I have. The items on the panel are higher use and that is true. I can select them by touching the screen or cursor, but I still find it easier this way.
The autopilot panel is much easier to finesse in flight that using the screen, in my view, and so I opted for it.
One point here…with the Vans RV-12 you can only have these panels mounted vertically due to wiring and panel space. Even though its advertised as being available vertically or horizontally. It's not a problem for me, but vertical is the only option.

I asked about the new throttle springs since Mitch has the new (in test) vernier throttle, and throttle springs. I was supposed to get them but the batch was faulty and now I'll have to retro-fit when they come in.
The new throttle is 'in engineering' as is the new split panel at the rear of the cockpit, which when included prevents removing the fuel tank at annual to inspect the rear inside fuselage.
To be fair 'in engineering' also means 'waiting for the Feds to do the approval and paperwork'.

The throttle is a pain in the butt to me. The springs are too strong so you fly with the friction lock almost full on and I had a sore hand most of the way home from Vans. If you loosen it a tad in the pattern it'll creep up on you and you'll be holding a little power in when you thought it was at idle! The new vernier throttle is the 'fix'. Coming soon.

Ordering was simple really, I just ordered all the options. The basic plane is $115k. I ordered fairings, ADSB, a/p, Skyview Touch, the knob and a/p panel and if you order all them as the package you save $600. I ordered the cover, tow bar etc too I couldn't see why I'd order the basic plane.

I found vans Sales responsive WHEN I contacted THEM but don't find them to be pro-active. Partly, this is because the sales team are at Synergy who build the SLSA at Eugene, versus established Vans who are foremost a kit maker who recently has started making a few planes from the kits. My impression is that Vans is a airplane kit maker. Most of their building is made up of folks making and stacking parts. Now, recently, they have a few that are actually planes and so a bit of a curiosity to some, seeing the actual product. There are tours going through and a few demo flights.
Vans are extremely low-key and will answer you but don't expect the slick show-room sales person either. On the one hand this is good because who needs another layer of BS these days, on the other though I think they lack a co-ordinator who can pro-actively stay in tough with you throughout the process.
For me, this meant trying to get out of them the day when I'd be able to take delivery which I needed because I was trying to make a plan to fly out book a hotel and fly the plane home to SC, an almost 3000 mile trip over 5 days. To be fair, they're waiting for the FAA DAR to arrive to do the final airworthiness check and so didn't want to be specific. Needless to say it was frustrating though.

At Aurora prepare to be underwhelmed, as I said before, this is a kit factory, with a couple of older RVs and the new plane and the trainer. No big-whoop sales dept!
I did a couple of hours with Jose, a local instructor, in their SLSA, because mine wasn't ready. When I was I was checked out but I wanted at least an hour in my own plane and that's what I got.I paid Jose for the time over the 2 hours included. They include 2 hours of transition training in the purchase price and I asked Jose for more plus a short cross country so we could play with the autopilot and the Skyview which i found invaluable.
Deliveries seem to be on a Friday so my plane was ready to go Saturday am and vans was closed for the week-end so don't expect a crowd to wave you off! Just kidding. Why not do it on a Monday/Tuesday so if you encounter an issue going home, they're at work to help? Just saying.

So basically that was the process for me. I stayed at Holiday Inn, Wilsonville. They were great and had an on-demand shuttle to Aurora Jet Center right next door to Vans. They work with corporate crews at the Jet Center who would have rented me a car for $34 per day. Don't rent from PDX as it's much higher and a one-way drop off. There is a lady I used who picked me up at PDX and drove me to the hotel for $55, and is the person the Jet center uses. Call Jet center for details and a number.
Holiday Inn was one of the best hotels I've used lately and with the Jet Center rate of $94 per night I got a great free breakfast each day included, and it was excellent.
Aurora Jet center were great to me so I bought gas there but they war super helpful and provided cold water, snacks and wi-fi way beyond what I deserved by only buying a half tank of gas.

Anyway, hope this helps anyone who is contemplating being a new Vans RV-12 SLSA.

[MovingOn]

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[drseti]

Jack suggested I write a bit about the process I went through acquiring the Vans RV-12 SLSA.

Thanks, Jack, for suggesting this. Thanks, Howard, for complying.

I attended the 2014 Light Sport Expo at Sebring.
I tried to get a demo on the RV-12 but due to a couple of problems didn't get one.

You were probably trying while they were waiting for the pitot tube bushing to be replaced. I was more fortunate than you, Howard, in that I did get a demo at Sebring the following day -- in Mitch's personal plane, which flies like a dream.

I might take the 2 day maintenance course for extra knowledge

As it happens, I'm hosting one of the Rainbow 16 hour LSRI courses here in Lock Haven, on 22 - 23 November. Details on the AvSport Facebook page, at https://www.facebook.com/events/692374840855774/?ref=22. Come visit us at scenic and historic Lock Haven if you get a chance!

[FastEddieB]

An RV12 would definitely be on my short list if I ever needed to replace my Sky Arrow.

Did you, like me, notice how thin the aluminum skin is, specifically on the wing? I was cautioned at the Light Sport Expo to only brace myself at the rivet line - hence supported structure. The skin between those points felt vaguely like a "tin can".

Not meant to be a criticism, and obviously strong enough, but it was my strongest impression of the plane, strangely enough.

[Wm.Ince]

Thanks for the write up Howard. Enjoyed reading the whole thing.

[drseti]

Not a tin can, Eddie. More like aluminum foil.
Actually, on my SportStar (and probably on the RV12 as well) those skins are 20 thousandths of an inch. What we engineers call "oh two oh". What Burt Rutan calls "oh two thin"!

[FastEddieB]

Then probably handy to keep this in your toolkit:



Also handy for making a hat to keep them from reading your thoughts.

[drseti]

I thought that stuff wasn't supposed to rust.

[Nomore767]

An RV12 would definitely be on my short list if I ever needed to replace my Sky Arrow.

Did you, like me, notice how thin the aluminum skin is, specifically on the wing? I was cautioned at the Light Sport Expo to only brace myself at the rivet line - hence supported structure. The skin between those points felt vaguely like a "tin can".

Not meant to be a criticism, and obviously strong enough, but it was my strongest impression of the plane, strangely enough.

Eddie,

I think I know what you mean. My first impression was that the RV-12 looked 'kit-like'. Of course, it IS a kit plane, but what I mean is compared to the more plush foreign carbon-fibre models with smoother bonded (rivet free) surfaces. That being said the mantra at Vans, that I heard, was 'weight, weight, weight..etc" . The wing panels are thin, and did you see the seat backs? Very light BUT robust too.
My airplane came out heavier compared to some. I believe Mitch Lock's N912VA is about 720lbs whereas mine is 765lbs. The Skycatchers I've flown were around 860-70lbs. That's quite a bit of difference.

With the knowledge that the wing metal, all metal, is thinner and so subject to damage if weight/force is applied to the wrong place then you can bear that in mind. Similar, to my concern when flying/taxiing/pushing the Remos that a simple ding or nudge to the composite wing tip or other extremity could cause damage. Indeed, a Remos wing tip got a nice crack from a brush with the hangar door (not my fault!!) and the cargo door got a nice crack in it too. Both required considerable down time and expense.

This is a picture of the right wing and the wing panels.

[FastEddieB]

Bear in mind my composite Sky Arrow porked out at 861 lbs from the factory. Still 850+ even after going to the lithium iron battery (but adding a fire extinguisher).

Composite construction has not necessarily led to lighter planes. The Cirrus and ill-fated Starship point that out as well.

I think you made a fine choice.

Oh, and I really, really want to see and/or fly your plane. Always looking for an excuse to fly.

Where in SC are you?

[Nomore767]

Plane is at KLKR Lancaster SC and we live about 25 mins away in Fort Mill SC just south of Charlotte.

KLKR is a QUIET field ….there are a couple of gas stations not far with 93 non-ethanol and Barnwell SC has a pump with 93 non-ethanol.

Surprised that the Sky Arrow weighs in that high as it's got that narrow boom tail too…you never know.

[MovingOn]

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[Nomore767]

Rock Hill , when I checked only had some shade hangars which were $75 a month and not what I'd use. They also have condo hangars either for sale or high rent with a long waiting list. Lancaster has nobody on tie downs and is so quiet that sometimes the open door hangars like I have are available. there are some hangars with doors here and I might look into them. There's a Sport Cruiser there now as well as a CTLS so we might be able to share.

[Jack Tyler]

Howard, thanks for taking the time to write this up for us. By far the most detailed info relevant to a buyer (vs. a magazine reader) that I've read. The comments about Synergy were interesting (to me, anyway) as I see little comment about them and yet, for the S-LSA buyer, they are central to the product. I also think you caught the Vans style of interacting with their customer base perfectly. I see it as an outgrowth of their builder orientation. They're busy doing their thing and you're busy building. Need something? Just give us a call and we'll help you sort it. Otherwise, just place the next kit order when you are getting ready to build it and - meanwhile - keep on building.

That 'weight, weight, weight' thing is, as much as anything else, rooted in Van's early and continuing involvement in sailplanes and soaring. I read a while back on the VAF site that the proper orientation in Van's mind is not to count pounds or even ounces but grams. <s> And altho' this is probably unnecessary given how thorough your research has been, I'd encourage you to monitor several of the VAF forum sections periodically. Perhaps do a scan weekly. When considering a RV-12 build, I found the depth of flight experience found there and the depth of build experience present to both add considerably to my understanding of Vans, RV's in general and specifically the -12. I also found it easy to get a response when I had a Q of some kind. It's a real (not just virtual) flying community, in my experience.

[FastEddieB]

Plane is at KLKR Lancaster SC and we live about 25 mins away in Fort Mill SC just south of Charlotte.

KLKR is a QUIET field ….there are a couple of gas stations not far with 93 non-ethanol and Barnwell SC has a pump with 93 non-ethanol.

Let's come up with a place and a time to get together. I'm pretty flexible and always looking for excuses to fly.

Don't count out Copperhill, TN (1A3) as a destination - good Mexican food and I can get ethanol free 93 octane to egg you on your way home.

Surprised that the Sky Arrow weighs in that high as it's got that narrow boom tail too…you never know.

Sure does look light!

1) It began life as an unmanned drone, so weight was not a huge priority.

2) It morphed into a certified plane, so 1,320 lbs gross was not an initial hurdle.

3) It uses substantial control rods instead of cable for the full run to both the elevator and ailerons.

Probably much easier to design light from the get go than to try to pare weight off an existing design.