Unsettling first flight - CFI cut engine twice in flight

[Jon V]

Positive exchange of controls...I've flown with CFIs who did, and others who didn't, and positive is better....but honestly I wouldn't call it a deal killer in itself.

I respectfully disagree. I've had students on the rudders or stick that I could never have overpowered in an emergency....

Good point. I've never felt I needed more than fingertip pressure on the controls so it didn't really occur to me that your relative strength mattered or that a CFI couldn't take control at any time. Probably comes in part from the fact that I flew models (mostly rc sailplanes) starting at 8 or 9. I can see where students can vary though. Honestly I wonder if when they are really in a panic they will respond to the control change command anyway, but any port in a storm.

I stand cheerfully corrected.

[ibgarrett]

To add to Paul's point - it's not just a CFI that needs to be a good ambassador to GA, it is ALL pilots. I jump at the chance to take anyone up for a flight, however I also respect my passengers enough to tell them what is going on, why it is going on and to not throw any "gotchas" at them to give them any cause to fear flying.

Would a boat salesman take a passenger out into the ocean and then flood the boat to prove it would still float?

Would a driving instructor "test" the airbags on a car to prove they work with a new driver?

Turning the engine off is just as irresponsible. Can it be done? Yup. Is it done? Yup. But certainly not on a discovery flight.

Brian

[Jack Tyler]

theelblue:

A couple of things struck me about your initial post:
-- first, I'm impressed with your perspective. Those original flight lessons obviously stuck with you and the concerns you identified are appropriate to be concerned about.
-- no matter how the flight ended (and after he'd been in the cockpit with you), as it began it was apparently contracted to be a Discovery Flight. Usually, this means a smaller fee is paid for a short flight time. In such circumstances, it's not unusual for the CFI to ignore the pre-flight - which in fairness takes the same amount of time prior to any flight and which in this case he may have felt he wasn't really being paid for. It is, in my view, also a lousy practice. I'll bet most of the licensed pilots on this forum, if they land to fuel or buy lunch, would never think of then departing a short time later without at least a cursory pre-flight. So...it's easy to imagine how/why that happened tho'
it's a lousy way for HIM to introduce himself to YOU as a potential CFI.
-- as for the rest of the flight, in my view he simply behaved as an insensitive jerk who failed to see the reality of what would be helpful to you (and eventually would be of benefit to him). The term 'clueless' comes to mind...

I hope you pursue your initial interest in flying; it's a challenge and a joy that is all but unmatched. But I'd urge you to shop instructors - and even flight schools - thoroughly so you get the kind of instructor you deserve.

[drseti]

There are no other options near me, so im really disappointed but I just don't feel comfortable with this guy.

The availability of LSAs (or, rather, the lack thereof), plus the resistance of many flight schools to embracing the whole Sport Pilot movement, put many prospective students in this same situation, feeling there are no other options. Unfortunately, this results in some students settling for less than they deserve (and far less than they are paying for). Although this particular flight school may indeed be the closest to you, please realize that there are always other options. They may not be as convenient, but you shouldn't rule them out. One possibility is to take an extended vacation, and go out of your local area for an intensive training program. Another is to dedicate a couple of weekends a month to going to a more distant location, staying over a night, and getting a bunch of flying in.

I did this myself two years ago, when I decided to make the transition from big and fast to small and slow. I drove to Lancaster PA (a good 3 hours from home; far too distant to commute), checked into a cheap hotel for two nights, and spent three days flying a bunch of different LSAs at one of the first flight schools in this state to embrace that kind of flying. Made my transition much less painful -- I suppose, had I rationalized that there's no LSA activity in my area, I would never have started my flight school and brought Sport Pilot training to my region!

I have a student from Pittsburgh (a good four hour drive) who is coming to me on weekends. There is apparently no LSA training available in his area (which surprises me, but that's fodder for another post). He stays the weekend in a camping trailer we have here on the airport (much cheaper than a motel), works really hard on weekends, and will make reasonable progress despite initially feeling he had "no options." So, you can make it work if you're creative.

Good luck, and Safe Skies.

[zdc]

Where did I say it was OK to shutdown an engine in normal flight?

You don't have to. It is. A plane like the Stemme S10-VT would be a lot less fun otherwise.

I don't know what a S10-VT is and could care less. My advice to the OP stands. Any instructor that shuts down an engine as part of a flight lesson or discovery flight should be avoided. Idiot instructors have killed many people over the years.

[drseti]

I don't know what a S10-VT is and could care less.

It's a motor glider (or, self-launching sailplane) that uses a Rotax 914 engine. In such an aircraft, it's standard procedure to shut down the engine in flight, after reaching a safe altitude, going into soaring mode, and then fire up the engine again for landing (in case you have to go around). So, in at least some applications, shutting down an engine in flight is an approved, standard maneuver. (But not in an airplane, LSA or otherwise).

[JimNtexas]

had a retired Delta Airlines Captain as my CFII who secretly shut the fuel valve to create an engine failure (He didn't turn it back on until we were on the ground).

This was on climbout after takeoff at about 600 or 700 AGL.

I hope you called the FAA and asked them to stop this maniac before he kills someone.

[ming1000]

I turned down a flight school because of lack of preflight, the young instructor actually missed wheel stopper while he was going to taxing out.

The school/ instructor I chose conducted a very thorough preflight with me, though the discovery itself was not very comfortable to me at the time; the reason is I was new to flying, the noon time thermo made me nausea.

My instructor made me turn off the engine, but it was during my pre checkride polishing, and we were no more than 500 ft to the runway threshold; he'd like to give me a taste of engine out; and he actually forbides me post such manuver on web.

You may take a vaccation to a accelerat training course; I suggest you complete your written before you go, and try to finish it in one run.

I really miss flying, I'm currently grounded by my coming daughter.

Good Luck

[ming1000]

two more cents:

if possible, try to take more discovery flights with different schools; I spent at least 500 buck flew with 4 schools and talked to a dozen.

My standard is simple, finding someone who has the ability to take me back to ground safely. Talking on the phone could reveal some truth too.

[celtic]

Was this a young, freshly-minted CFI ...
OR an old-timer?

I had a retired Delta Airlines Captain as my CFII who secretly shut the fuel valve to create an engine failure (He didn't turn it back on until we were on the ground).

This was on climbout after takeoff at about 600 or 700 AGL. It was his airplane and he had, unknown to me, practiced this many times to do a u-turn glide back to the runway. His intent was to see how well I could do that same maneuver without any practice.

I thought it was a REAL engine failure. When I started trouble-shooting during the glide, I reached to check the fuel valve between his legs. He put his hand down and said "It's ON." After making the safe glide back and doing a deadstick landing, he told me what he had done. I was furious, but he got me my instrument rating with very little wasted hours or money.

I thought common practice is to never attempt a turnaround on a failed take off? Or does that apply to lower Agl?

[JimNtexas]

I thought common practice is to never attempt a turnaround on a failed take off? Or does that apply to lower Agl?

This CFI was a lunatic!!!!! It may, in perfect circumstances, be just barely possible to pull off a stunt like this, but in almost all cases a turnaround at low altitude results in death.

This amounted to a dangerous low altitude aerobatic maneuver, and the CFI in question should lose his license for attempting it with a student on board.

Another important safety tip: If a CFI says 'don't mention this on the web' before he demonstrates a maneuver, FIND ANOTHER CFI BEFORE YOU GET KILLED!!!!

[Jim Stewart]

I thought common practice is to never attempt a turnaround on a failed take off? Or does that apply to lower Agl?

There's a lot of great discussion about that subject. Here's one:
http://ctflier.com/index.php?/topic/586 ... impossible

In any case, it's not something a low-time student should be messing with. If you want a taste of it, have your instructor demo it at 3000 feet.

[bryancobb]

Maybe I misled some folks. John D*****s did this with me as his student. I was already a commercial rated ex-military helicopter pilot and Private fixed-wing pilot with a few hundred hours in planes. He was getting me through my fixed-wing instrument/commercial so I could start flying for the Georgia State Patrol.

He had demonstrated the 500ft AGL 220 degree turn-back to me several times and I had done it several times. The lesson was "How shallow coordinated, gentle turns preserve your altitude.

The ONLY part that made this a stupid thing to do was SURPRISING ME WITH turning off the fuel. He had no doubt I'd do it just like several times before, with engine idling.

[KSCessnaDriver]

This CFI was a lunatic!!!!! It may, in perfect circumstances, be just barely possible to pull off a stunt like this, but in almost all cases a turnaround at low altitude results in death.

This amounted to a dangerous low altitude aerobatic maneuver, and the CFI in question should lose his license for attempting it with a student on board.

You've got to be kidding me. Was what he did not the brightest idea, yes. But an aerobatic maneuver, give me a break. You're the one who should get reported to the FAA for trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Needless to say, I've had an engine shut off by an instructor on me before. Wasn't with the ignition, but rather just pulling the mixture to idle cutoff. We were over an airport at 4000 feet AGL, so it wasn't that big of a deal, IMO.

Is it something I would do on a first flight with a student? No. With a student near a checkride? Perhaps

[RyanShort1]

I thought common practice is to never attempt a turnaround on a failed take off? Or does that apply to lower Agl?

This CFI was a lunatic!!!!! It may, in perfect circumstances, be just barely possible to pull off a stunt like this, but in almost all cases a turnaround at low altitude results in death.

This amounted to a dangerous low altitude aerobatic maneuver, and the CFI in question should lose his license for attempting it with a student on board.

Another important safety tip: If a CFI says 'don't mention this on the web' before he demonstrates a maneuver, FIND ANOTHER CFI BEFORE YOU GET KILLED!!!!

I suppose all of our glider instructors (some of whom I tow...) are lunatics, too... because they HAVE to do simulated rope breaks with the release sometimes as low as 2-300' AGL and return to the field with a 180 degree turn.

If the instructor is proficient in the maneuver, and if he has some "margins" built in, then it's no different than the glider guys. We have one bird that I KNOW from multiple attempts could safely make the field with the engine shut off from 500' AGL and I usually do show students this at some point prior to checkride in that aircraft. We also stress that any such maneuver very much depends on the individual aircraft, and that it is a good idea to do some practice maneuvers at altitude to be better prepared.

I do agree with the others that positive exchange of controls is pretty important, as is making sure you take care of the customer. If you asked him not to turn the engine off, and he did again, that would tell me there is an issue there with treating you as a valuable customer.

Ryan