Unsettling first flight - CFI cut engine twice in flight

[theelblue]

I've really enjoyed reading this forum and others as I consider getting my SP license.

In college, about 12 years ago, I started flight training but had to stop after about 5 hours for financial reasons. This year my wife got me a "discovery flight" as a birthday present. I had already been looking at SP options and their is really only 1 school within a reasonable distance of my house. So, I was really hoping for a positive experience that would let me take the plunge into training again.

The instructor was very nice and started with some basic explanation of aerodynamics and and an overview of LSA planes which was useful. Then we went out to the allegro this school uses.

1. We didn't do a preflight. Perhaps he completed it before I arrived, but I would think he would include me.
2. No positive exchange of controls. Sometimes I didn't know who had the airplane. No a good thing.
3. Twice he completely shut down the rotax in flight at about 4,000 agl. To show me how "great the gliding capabilities of the aircraft are". This was very unnerving to me the first time and I asked him not to do it again. Then he thought he felt a thermal under a large cloud and did it anyway just a few minutes later.

All this troubled me. Am I too rigid in what to expect? There are no other options near me, so im really disappointed but I just don't feel comfortable with this guy.

[CBKERR]

My question is did he totally shut down the engine or pull it to idle?
If he totally killed the engine, that in my opinion is totally unacceptable. If he pulled it to idle, he should have explained what he was going to do and what to expect. I'm training in a tecnom eaglet p92. Great plane, very stable. I'm working on landings now and we were abeam the numbers when my trottle was pulled to idle and my instructor told me simulated engine out. Great learning experience. Made my call to traffic. Bay bridge traffic 15 hotel victor simulated engine out don wind turning final rnwy 29 bay bridge. Made my turns and landed with no problems. I learned slot from it. My point is I'm at 26 hrs and am a student. I was not on a discovery flight and I am now used to emergency drills to make me a safe pilot.


Hope some of this helped

[theelblue]

Ignition key to off, propeller stops turning. About two minutes each time.

A simulated engine failure would be a great drill as you mention... Trim for best glide, pick a spot to land, declare emergency, etc.

Has anyone else had an instructor actually kill the engine in flight for kicks?

[Jim Stewart]

Totally unacceptable. As is no positive exchange of controls. If you really want an answer, call your local FSDO and ask. I'm pretty sure I know what the answer will be.

[CBKERR]

DO NOT TRAIN WITH HIM. That is wrong. Not saying that it couldn't restart but that does not teach you how to be a safe pilot it teaches you how to be a show off and take chances. I sure hope this as&ole didn't push you away from your dream. Not sure where your at but if you can train at cap, it's worth it. I drive 1.5 - 2 but learn a lot and I know I'm safe


Www.Chesapeakesportpilot.com

Brian

[bryancobb]

Was this a young, freshly-minted CFI ...
OR an old-timer?

I had a retired Delta Airlines Captain as my CFII who secretly shut the fuel valve to create an engine failure (He didn't turn it back on until we were on the ground).

This was on climbout after takeoff at about 600 or 700 AGL. It was his airplane and he had, unknown to me, practiced this many times to do a u-turn glide back to the runway. His intent was to see how well I could do that same maneuver without any practice.

I thought it was a REAL engine failure. When I started trouble-shooting during the glide, I reached to check the fuel valve between his legs. He put his hand down and said "It's ON." After making the safe glide back and doing a deadstick landing, he told me what he had done. I was furious, but he got me my instrument rating with very little wasted hours or money.

[Jon V]

Preflight should be part of every lesson, IMO, and ideally the plane shouldn't leave your sight between preflight and flight (especially rental planes). However, I'm not sure all CFIs really consider a discovery flight a lesson in the "part of the syllabus" sense, and on the discovery flight I took years ago I met the CFI at the plane and he said he had just finished the preflight. He was one of the better CFIs I've flown with.

Positive exchange of controls...I've flown with CFIs who did, and others who didn't, and positive is better....but honestly I wouldn't call it a deal killer in itself.

Shutting the engine off ... I'm going to take a stance here that many will probably disagree with.

1) There are airplanes where shutting the engine off in flight is part of normal operations. It's expected that the engine will be shut off and restarted at least once in a typical flight. I.e. motor gliders. Some use the exact same Rotax as the Allegro.

2) The Allegro has somewhere around a 12:1 glide ratio. If you were 4000' AGL you could reach any airport within about 8 miles (conservatively).

3) I don't know where you are, but some parts of the country have dozens of grass airfields scattered around. You may not have even realized were there. At 4000' AGL you could've been directly above a private field or even a public airport without knowing.

4) There are airplanes where every single landing is done without an engine. Safely. The inability to go-around adds an element of risk, but not as much risk as you might think. I haven't been flying long so this is a lousy example but I personally have never seen a go-around that was triggered by anything but in-cockpit decisionmaking (as in, the pilot wasn't happy with his approach, or wanted to practice go-arounds...vs. a herd of cattle wandering onto the runway).

It would've made me nervous too, especially on a first flight, but without some specific information telling me otherwise there is no reason to believe it was unsafe. And getting over that nervousness might very well make you a better pilot in the long run. The last thing you want to do is freeze up when a real emergency hits.

Might ask the CFI if he has time in gliders....

[deltafox]

What was the purpose of this maneuver? Clearly the student did see this as a confidence builder, either in the instructor or the aircraft. No, I think this was just wrong (regardless of the airplanes capabilities).

[zdc]

Preflight should be part of every lesson, IMO, and ideally the plane shouldn't leave your sight between preflight and flight (especially rental planes). However, I'm not sure all CFIs really consider a discovery flight a lesson in the "part of the syllabus" sense, and on the discovery flight I took years ago I met the CFI at the plane and he said he had just finished the preflight. He was one of the better CFIs I've flown with.

Positive exchange of controls...I've flown with CFIs who did, and others who didn't, and positive is better....but honestly I wouldn't call it a deal killer in itself.

Shutting the engine off ... I'm going to take a stance here that many will probably disagree with.

1) There are airplanes where shutting the engine off in flight is part of normal operations. It's expected that the engine will be shut off and restarted at least once in a typical flight. I.e. motor gliders. Some use the exact same Rotax as the Allegro.

2) The Allegro has somewhere around a 12:1 glide ratio. If you were 4000' AGL you could reach any airport within about 8 miles (conservatively).

3) I don't know where you are, but some parts of the country have dozens of grass airfields scattered around. You may not have even realized were there. At 4000' AGL you could've been directly above a private field or even a public airport without knowing.

4) There are airplanes where every single landing is done without an engine. Safely. The inability to go-around adds an element of risk, but not as much risk as you might think. I haven't been flying long so this is a lousy example but I personally have never seen a go-around that was triggered by anything but in-cockpit decisionmaking (as in, the pilot wasn't happy with his approach, or wanted to practice go-arounds...vs. a herd of cattle wandering onto the runway).

It would've made me nervous too, especially on a first flight, but without some specific information telling me otherwise there is no reason to believe it was unsafe. And getting over that nervousness might very well make you a better pilot in the long run. The last thing you want to do is freeze up when a real emergency hits.

Might ask the CFI if he has time in gliders....

You're right, I'm going to disagree with you. Shutting down an engine in flight for demostration purposes is about as dumb as it gets. I would run, not walk, away from that instructor.

[Jon V]

Well... I'll admit I posted that in part to trigger dialogm but.

Shutting down for normal flight is OK but doing it for demonstration is not because?

[theelblue]

Thanks for all the replies. I'll add so e detail to help answer some of the questions posed by you guys.

1. Yes it was a discovery flight but I told him I was interested in instruction and he signed .6 hours in my logbook. So I thought of it as a lesson.

2. The second time the engine was out we were probably within gliding range of the uncontrolled, municipal airport we took off from.

3. Although I'm new to training, I'm definitely an aviation enthusiast. You know, the type of guy who listens to act.net for fun.

4. The instructor has been flying for over 20 years including time as a commercial pilot in small freight operationns and several years of instructing.

Overall, the thing that bothers me most was that after I explained to him that turning off the engine made me nervous and asked him not to do it again, he did it anyway. He was getting a kick out of trying to fly the airplane like a glider or maybe just trying to show off. Either one seems like bad behavior for a CFI. I've decided to look for other training options.

[zdc]

Well... I'll admit I posted that in part to trigger dialogm but.

Shutting down for normal flight is OK but doing it for demonstration is not because?

Where did I say it was OK to shutdown an engine in normal flight?

[Jon V]

Where did I say it was OK to shutdown an engine in normal flight?

You don't have to. It is. A plane like the Stemme S10-VT would be a lot less fun otherwise.

[drseti]

Positive exchange of controls...I've flown with CFIs who did, and others who didn't, and positive is better....but honestly I wouldn't call it a deal killer in itself.

I respectfully disagree. I've had students on the rudders or stick that I could never have overpowered in an emergency. It's absolutely essential for both parties to know who's flying the plane at all times. Transfer of control should always involve a challenge and response procedure. It should be discussed, and practiced, before flight (especially on a Discovery Flight, when one never knows if the student is likely to freeze up on the controls).

A good case in point is the USAir Hudson River emergency landing a year and a half ago. Sullenberger and Skyles had never flown together before, but they worked as a very efficient team because they had both trained to the same rigid procedures. This included positive transfer of control. Listen to the cockpit voice recorder tapes (they're somewhere on Youtube). Jeffrey was flying. You hear him say "Birds!" Then, you hear Sully say "my aircraft" and Jeffrey replies "your aircraft." After that, Jeffrey starts reading off emergency checklist items to Sully. Excellent crew coordination and cockpit resource management, from which we can all learn. (Maybe that CFI needs to listen to those CVR tapes...)

[drseti]

Overall, the thing that bothers me most was that after I explained to him that turning off the engine made me nervous and asked him not to do it again, he did it anyway.

That's pretty discourteous, if not necessarily unsafe. It's also lousy marketing. All CFIs should realize that a Discovery Flight is a chance to start a new airman down the path to earning his or her wings. The instructor is an ambassador for GA, and even if that particular instructor doesn't care about gaining or losing a potential student for himself, he should realize that moves like that can turn an otherwise enthusiastic future pilot away from aviation. Bad for all of us!