Pattern speeds for Skycatcher

[celtic]

Local FBO has a skycatcher 162 that I'm using for lessons. We also have a 172sp.

Base is recommended 1.4 x Vs0. According to FAA and training material.
Final is 1.3 x Vs0. I did not see any data on speeds in the owners handbook.

About 10knots slower than want the instructors advise. Seams like the little plane just keeps on flying if I approach at 60-64knots. [/list]

[celtic]

I'll be flying this afternoon. Going to try for 60kt as max on final. Leaving 12kt before recommended vs0 x 1.3.

[zaitcev]

I figure that using Vs0 to guide the speeds is only possible when with flaps, which I suppose is true at base and final legs. Another possibility is to idle it in at Vy.

[NismoRR]

I trained in and fly the 162 and find that 53-55kts is where you want to be to produce the most consistent landings, with full flaps in light winds. Vso (37) x 1.3 is 48 kts and we found it a bit too slow. 58-60 is ok just be ready to be patient cause it will float a bit.

[celtic]

What rpm do you pull back to at the numbers at what speed do you cross the numbers?

[NismoRR]

What rpm do you pull back to at the numbers at what speed do you cross the numbers?

That's the real question. It took a lot of time in training to get this right. Through the first half of pattern work, I was ohigh and fast every time and doing power off approaches. I finally told my CFI I wanted to be on glidescope when I turned final. I discovered you have to be under 1500 rpm to allow the plane to descend, I use 1400-1450 or so. Works very well for me. If I'm doing a full flap landing, I put in the 2 Nd notch just before the base turn. At the numbers, my eyes are outside
The plane usually, but I'd say somewhere around 45 kts.

[celtic]

That confirms what I tested Sunday. 1500rpm plus carries to much speed. 1400-1450 is what I started working towards.

Pull throttle back, carb heat, trim two-three tabs back, One flap setting. Next time up I want to work on finding the correct trim settings.

I love training in the plane with the glass panel and modern yoke. But landings sure make you learn perfect pattern work.

[roger lee]

Throttle doesn't control your speed the stick or yoke does. Throttle will control the altitude. Pull the stick back and the speed decreases with 1400 or 1600 rpm. Push it forward and the speed increase. You will find that landing many light aircraft is much easier to land with a little throttle all the way to the ground than at idle and will keep you out of trouble. It will give better control over the flight surfaces and less sink rate to correct for at the bottom. Who cares if you float an extra 50-75 ft. It isn't a short field landing contest. It's about getting as close to a perfect landing and as close to 100% of the time. We aren't perfect so most aren't at the 100% mark, but it sure puts you closer. Always landing at stall or idle to me is old school CFI training. They were taught that so that is how they teach. I help lots of high time CFI's and pilots transition from GA to LSA light aircraft. As soon as you break some of those old school habits things get easier. I'm not saying don't learn all flap and throttle settings for your personal mental toolbox, but on the everyday landing a little throttle in a light aircraft tends to give it a little better landing characteristics. The majority of the students I see come to me because their CFI is having them land at idle and lots of flaps. Too many corrections for a new guy and it is ten times easier to take them to that point in baby steps than throw them in the deep end of the pool with everything going on at the bottom of a landing. A little power, less flaps or no flaps makes the learning curve a little flatter and less frustrating for the student and for high time transition pilots. I see far more high time pilots with troubles than students because the high time guys do it like they did with the GA aircraft and light LSA aircraft sure isn't the same so why would anyone teach the same?


Definition of a good instructor for anything:
Teach the way the students need to learn not the way you want to teach!

[Jack Tyler]

In reading this discussion, what strikes me is the desire to know and use 'the one right way' to land the Skycatcher. As one is doing initial training, it's very helpful to have a 'formula' of sorts while attempting to land well, consistently. It standardizes the speed/height/trim profile you are learning to achieve, landing after landing, so it's understandable why that seems so important. However...

Keep in mind that the reality of flying would suggest that you need to consider every landing to be unique. You might take off early, in a morning calm, but land at your destination after morning thermals develop. If near a coastal area, the night-time land breeze may end after you depart or a wind reversal with the early sea breeze coming up might occur by the time you land. You might depart a small field in a less developed area and, after a short flight to a more developed city, be landing over a clump of large buildings with the localized effect of the thermals off their roofs, asphalt parking lots, and such. There are many other such examples of how things can change, even absent dramatic weather shifts. My point is that, while initially a set procedure and a specific repeatable landing profile may seem to be necessary, just keep in mind that as your experience builds, you'll realize that working to that same profile, time after time, is actually a dysfunctional approach to making consistently good landings. Instead, you'll be looking for how the existing circumstances (density altitude, wind direction & strength, degree of crosswind, obstructions ahead of the runway, the other aircraft in the pattern, weight of the aircraft) should shape your approach and landing, and you'll want to adjust accordingly.

[celtic]

Roger- Are you talking about a swept wing jet type landing where the plane is flown onto the ground verse the GA method of going super slow and stalling out above the runway.

[roger lee]

Hi Celtic,

I'm just talking about leaving some throttle in to touch down. If you leave in 2400-2800 rpm (depends on total weight and aircraft) on the way down at 60 knots on approach (for an SLSA aircraft) and then do your round out at the bottom then the sink rate is slower, corrections are lessened, the controls more solid, less chance for a stall, better control in a cross wind, less chance of dropping it in verses a smooth landing. I have been flying light aircraft all my life and certainly landing at idle is only one technique, but for many leaving a little power right to touch solves many issues and helps people make more consistent landings. I have taught many a high time CFI and PP this way in both tricycle and tail dragger light aircraft. I happen to have a Flight Design CT and I leave 2600-2800 rpm in right to touch in all flap configurations. It makes them all smooth and very controllable. The majority of CT owners now leave some throttle in to touch as we have discussed this on our forum for many years and everyones agrees it makes for the most consistent and smooth touchdown. The transition pilots and students that had CFI's just teaching idle only and 30 flaps had issues, but then they ask to use throttle to the ground and all the issues went away. Yes there are times that an idle approach and different flap configurations are called for, but it shouldn't be the only tool in your bag. Guys who where having issues with bad cross winds have used this and said they won't do it any other way from now on. The stick controls your speed not the throttle. I approach at 60, round out by the runway at 55 and touch between 45-50. Never at full stall. Once at full stall controls are mushy and if your judgment happens to be off a little that day or a gust hits you your done. History shows too many bent gear with doing that type of landing as full time approach.

Being at full stall, full flaps and at idle is a one pony show and limits the pilot's mental and physical landing techniques.

I believe in giving people all the tools they need to be successful in landings and take them there in a logical baby step progression. Requiring a student or transition pilot to perform at and experienced level SLSA aircraft pilot is just wrong and it shows me the CFI or whom ever is a one pony show and not flexible enough or alert enough to see the different learning curve to teach the way the student or pilot needs to assimilate the knowledge.

I have flown many an LSA and it works for all. I'm sure it will work for the Sky Catcher, too. Unless you need to get in a short field why worry if you go an extra 50-100 ft. if you make a perfect landing. A normal landing isn't about always getting it down in the shortest possible distance. It's about being smooth. Once you get smooth down the rest falls in place with practice.

[drseti]

If you leave in 2400-2800 rpm

I think it's important here to note that Roger is using numbers for the Rotax -- a geared engine. The SkyCatcher uses a direct drive engine (the Continental O-200, possibly soon to be replaced by the Lycoming IO-233, also a direct drive engine). Prop speed for a geared engine is equal to engine RPM divided by gear ratio (in the case of the Rotax 912, that's 2.43:1). For a direct drive engine, crankshaft RPM and prop RPM are of course equal. Thus, the corresponding engine speed for the SkyCatcher would seem to be 1000 to 1150 RPM -- or, just a slight touch of power.

[drseti]

I believe in giving people all the tools they need to be successful in landings and take them there in a logical baby step progression.

Right on target, Roger! I would add that all my students are taught to master power-off landings (even if the arrival is a little firm), to prepare them for the inevitable engine failure, when landing with a little power just isn't going to be an option. If it ever happens for real, and you've done glider landings a hundred times already, it's no big deal.

[roger lee]

Hi Paul,

I was talking about a Rotax and forgot to mention that I switched gears on some so thanks for interjecting the other rpms. I think people need to learn all ways to land, but the easiest first and progress into more task oriented type landings as they get better.