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Feasibility Question

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:19 am
by bryancobb
It is known that many airplanes were sold with no electrical system and they are still flying.

In reality, would it be realistic to do all your training in one and take your checkride in one of those?

I.E. ...Would it be realistic to meet PTS requirements while only having flown in Class D, E, and G airspace?

Specifically... I found out yesterday while trying to get a 2-year VFR cert' on my perfectly-working TERRA
TRT-250 transponder that it is a "wheel chock." Its S/N and MOD Level of only "2" makes it junk I.A.W.
AD 95-01-01.

I was going to do the Tail Beacon for ADS-B but now I'm faced with $5000 of new equipment OR training
my daughter without ever going near Class C or B airspace.

Re: Feasibility Question

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:10 am
by MrMorden
bryancobb wrote:It is known that many airplanes were sold with no electrical system and they are still flying.

In reality, would it be realistic to do all your training in one and take your checkride in one of those?

I.E. ...Would it be realistic to meet PTS requirements while only having flown in Class D, E, and G airspace?

Specifically... I found out yesterday while trying to get a 2-year VFR cert' on my perfectly-working TERRA
TRT-250 transponder that it is a "wheel chock." Its S/N and MOD Level of only "2" makes it junk I.A.W.
AD 95-01-01.

I was going to do the Tail Beacon for ADS-B but now I'm faced with $5000 of new equipment OR training
my daughter without ever going near Class C or B airspace.


Many private pilots have done all their training in Cubs and Champs with no electrical systems. I think it's feasible.

Re: Feasibility Question

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:19 am
by 3Dreaming
I am doing the training for my boys in a 1941 Taylorcraft with no electric system. Cross country to Class D airport using a handheld radio. Since the Needle and ball was not working I did some instrument work with one of them in my Warrior. We will have to do the night flight in the Warrior as well. Once the needle and ball is working we are planning for them to do their checkrides in the Taylorcraft.

Re: Feasibility Question

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:48 am
by drseti
Bryan, it's certainly feasible (and not all that uncommon) to earn a pilot certificate in a NORDO aircraft that was manufactured without an electrical system, and has never had one installed. I started in a 1946 Champ. However, as a DPE, I would hesitate to give a practical test in an aircraft that has previously been equipped with an electrical system, and has had the electrics and avionics removed.

Re: Feasibility Question

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:02 am
by TimTaylor
I would just bite the bullet and purchase a new transponder with ADS-B out. That will add utility and value to the airplane plus give your daughter a better platform for obtaining a Private certificate. You have class B and two class C's right here. Let her have the experience of dealing with them.

Re: Feasibility Question

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:28 am
by dstclair
Bryan,

I was going to do the Tail Beacon for ADS-B but now I'm faced with $5000 of new equipment OR training
my daughter without ever going near Class C or B airspace.

You might consider going with an Appareo's Stratus ESG transponder for around $2800 which is 'only' one AMU more than a tailBeacon. Installation will be a bit more involved, though. I local shop quoted 16 hours for a Warrior install.

Re: Feasibility Question

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:34 am
by TimTaylor
My opinion is, if you're going to do aviation, do it right.

Re: Feasibility Question

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:03 pm
by 3Dreaming
drseti wrote:Bryan, it's certainly feasible (and not all that uncommon) to earn a pilot certificate in a NORDO aircraft that was manufactured without an electrical system, and has never had one installed. I started in a 1946 Champ. However, as a DPE, I would hesitate to give a practical test in an aircraft that has previously been equipped with an electrical system, and has had the electrics and avionics removed.


I don't think he is planning on removing the electrical system, only the transponder. He was asking if the training could be done without operating in the airspace in which a transponder is required.

Re: Feasibility Question

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:15 pm
by drseti
3Dreaming wrote: He was asking if the training could be done without operating in the airspace in which a transponder is required.


Training in non-transponder airspace is pretty much the rule around here. When checkride time rolls around, and the applicant prepares the requisite XC, it will be incumbent upon him or her to make up a flight plan that stays clear of ADS-B airspace.

Re: Feasibility Question

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:48 pm
by bryancobb
dstclair wrote:Bryan,

I was going to do the Tail Beacon for ADS-B but now I'm faced with $5000 of new equipment OR training
my daughter without ever going near Class C or B airspace.

You might consider going with an Appareo's Stratus ESG transponder for around $2800 which is 'only' one AMU more than a tailBeacon. Installation will be a bit more involved, though. I local shop quoted 16 hours for a Warrior install.


I had the shop quote the Stratus / ACK 30 and for $500 I'd get ADS-B In. He wanted $1800 for install and calibrate.

Total $5300. I'm just not sure I could recoup my money when I sell in 2 years. The whole reason for buying the plane was to get Meg's ticket for $0.
If I knew the 5300 spent would add 5300 in sell-able value, I'd do it in a second. I just like hearing other people's opinions. Knowledge is power.

Re: Feasibility Question

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:54 pm
by drseti
bryancobb wrote:If I knew the 5300 spent would add 5300 in sell-able value, I'd do it in a second. I just like hearing other people's opinions. Knowledge is power.


As a general rule, if you put $x into improving an aircraft's avionics, you can expect to recoup $x/2 when you sell. So, most of us invest in improvements that are going to benefit us for as long as we own the plane.

Re: Feasibility Question

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:04 pm
by TimTaylor
I think teaching your daughter how to fly in and out of class C plus how to deal with ATC and requesting clearance through class B would be worth the price. When it comes time to sell the airplane, prospective buyers are going to expect a working transponder and ADS-B out. When my friend sold his 1968 M20C, he got a premium price for it because it was well equipped and EVERYTHING WORKED.

Re: Feasibility Question

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:48 pm
by ShawnM
What about the Garmin GTX-335 transponder with ADS-B out? I know a place in North Florida that will install it for $3700 plus tax. If this interested you let me know. It's not that far from you and it'll save you loads of cash.

Re: Feasibility Question

Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:35 am
by bryancobb
ShawnM wrote:What about the Garmin GTX-335 transponder with ADS-B out? I know a place in North Florida that will install it for $3700 plus tax. If this interested you let me know. It's not that far from you and it'll save you loads of cash.



Thanks for that! That's getting close to my "tolerance $ Point." I'll let you know when I decide what I'm doing.

Re: Feasibility Question

Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:40 am
by bryancobb
drseti wrote:
bryancobb wrote:If I knew the 5300 spent would add 5300 in sell-able value, I'd do it in a second. I just like hearing other people's opinions. Knowledge is power.


As a general rule, if you put $x into improving an aircraft's avionics, you can expect to recoup $x/2 when you sell. So, most of us invest in improvements that are going to benefit us for as long as we own the plane.


My gut feeling is that "ADS-B EQUIPPED" will be an exception to that rule of thumb since it is a requirement.