Pilot performs forced landing day after insurance expires
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Pilot performs forced landing day after insurance expires
There's a video of a forced landing in an Idaho snow covered field that's gone viral in the last few days. The pilot did a terrific job as 4 people and a baby walked away physically uninjured.
Now, to add insult to no injury, I just read yesterday that the pilot's aircraft insurance expired at midnight the night before the forced landing and he had not/forgot to renew in time. The insurance company says they will not cover the loss because there are no extentions to premium due dates and no grace periods. I'm sure there are different policies with different companies but this appears to be unfair. Shouldn't the pilot receive a full hearing on his ommission before the company just issues a blanket "you aren't covered." What's your take on this and what is the general policy on an issue like this?
Now, to add insult to no injury, I just read yesterday that the pilot's aircraft insurance expired at midnight the night before the forced landing and he had not/forgot to renew in time. The insurance company says they will not cover the loss because there are no extentions to premium due dates and no grace periods. I'm sure there are different policies with different companies but this appears to be unfair. Shouldn't the pilot receive a full hearing on his ommission before the company just issues a blanket "you aren't covered." What's your take on this and what is the general policy on an issue like this?
Re: Pilot performs forced landing day after insurance expire
I'd sure like to know who his insurance company is, so we can all avoid doing business with them. (Better still, I'd like to see that insurance company's behavior going viral!)
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
Re: Pilot performs forced landing day after insurance expire
My own experience is the insurance company notifies me several times in advance of policy termination.
I'd be shocked if the insurance company would cover him. Why would they? He was, apparently of his own volition, uninsured. They owed him some grace period?
I'd be shocked if the insurance company would cover him. Why would they? He was, apparently of his own volition, uninsured. They owed him some grace period?
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Re: Pilot performs forced landing day after insurance expire
"My own experience is the insurance company notifies me several times in advance of policy termination.
I'd be shocked if the insurance company would cover him."
Concur completely. Here are two alternative ways to look at this kind of issue (beside just seeing the insurance company as the bad guy): 1) If he was covered the day after his policy expired, when would we expect coverage to actually lapse? 24 hours? 48 hours? One week? Where is this imaginary line drawn, if not in the policy language? 2) The insurance company has a duty to its client which is outlined by the policy. It also has a no-less important fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders or owners. Imagine an internal auditor later reviewing the claim's payment and asking: "Now why were these funds allocated to an uninsured rather than used to offset the costs of operating our company?"
I'd be shocked if the insurance company would cover him."
Concur completely. Here are two alternative ways to look at this kind of issue (beside just seeing the insurance company as the bad guy): 1) If he was covered the day after his policy expired, when would we expect coverage to actually lapse? 24 hours? 48 hours? One week? Where is this imaginary line drawn, if not in the policy language? 2) The insurance company has a duty to its client which is outlined by the policy. It also has a no-less important fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders or owners. Imagine an internal auditor later reviewing the claim's payment and asking: "Now why were these funds allocated to an uninsured rather than used to offset the costs of operating our company?"
Jack
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
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Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org
- FastEddieB
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Re: Pilot performs forced landing day after insurance expire
I'm with Jack.
Insurance policies have expiration dates.
Those expiration dates should be clearly defined in the policy.
A "grace period" would be wonderful, but if it's not there, so be it.
What would be the likely outcome if you were ramp-checked the day after your medical expired? Or if you were involved in an accident the day after your BFR expired?
I feel for the guy, but he just got a life lesson, albeit at a high price.
Insurance policies have expiration dates.
Those expiration dates should be clearly defined in the policy.
A "grace period" would be wonderful, but if it's not there, so be it.
What would be the likely outcome if you were ramp-checked the day after your medical expired? Or if you were involved in an accident the day after your BFR expired?
I feel for the guy, but he just got a life lesson, albeit at a high price.
Last edited by FastEddieB on Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Pilot performs forced landing day after insurance expire
It was interesting how fast the airplane flipped. It was just "BAMM!" Can anyone comment on his soft-field technique and/or the realities of doing a soft-field landing in snow like that?
Video and pics here:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02 ... nger-seat/
Video and pics here:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02 ... nger-seat/
Re: Pilot performs forced landing day after insurance expire
Once the nosewheel digs in, you're going over on your back, and there's not much you can do about it. So, the only defense is to keep the nosewheel off with full back stick. (Think taildragger landing technique.) In some planes, that's just not possible with a dead engine; there isn't enough elevator authority without propwash across the tailfeathers. (I don't know if that is the case with the accident airplane, but if it is, that would absolve the pilot somewhat.)designrs wrote:It was interesting how fast the airplane flipped. It was just "BAMM!" Can anyone comment on his soft-field technique and/or the realities of doing a soft-field landing in snow like that?
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
Re: Pilot performs forced landing day after insurance expire
Well, yes, and of course i don't know anything about this pilot's situation or extenuating circumstances. If he had received renewal notices and chose to ignore them for whatever reason, so be it. If he was traveling, and unable to send payment until he got home, a simple phone call might have gotten him a binder, and a check could have been sent later. All speculation. But there are also things an insurance company can do to help prevent a lapse. One is to have an automatic renewal clause (policy will renew unless you tell us otherwise). If they're concerned about being stiffed, insurance companies can also auto-bill renewals to a credit card, or ACH from a bank account. I would prefer to do business with insurance companies that have such protective policies .FastEddieB wrote:Insurance policies have expiration dates.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
Re: Pilot performs forced landing day after insurance expire
Aircraft insurance policies are not like automobile policies in that there is (typically) no automatic renewal. There is really no way for the insurer to know your flying experience over the last year, ratings/training received, last medical and the current claimed hull value.
My broker explicitly reminds of the non-renewal nature of aircraft policies every year and that there is no grace period. I checked my last few policies and the term is quite clear along with no grace period mentioned.
I feel for the pilot and wish him luck in getting coverage.
My broker explicitly reminds of the non-renewal nature of aircraft policies every year and that there is no grace period. I checked my last few policies and the term is quite clear along with no grace period mentioned.
I feel for the pilot and wish him luck in getting coverage.
dave
Re: Pilot performs forced landing day after insurance expire
This might be a nice discussion to break out to a separate thread. I have personal knowledge of cases where the plane flipped and cases where it went on it's nose but didn't flip.drseti wrote:Once the nosewheel digs in, you're going over on your back, and there's not much you can do about it.
For those just starting out, it might be an interesting thread to talk about the likely effects of landing off airport on various surfaces. For example, corn fields, where I come from.
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Re: Pilot performs forced landing day after insurance expire
We don't know the circumstances surrounding the insurance lapsing except the timing couldn't have been worse. I'm sure we've all not payed a bill on time because of nothing more than benign forgetfulness. Life gets in the way and sometimes things just aren't taken care of as they should in a timely manner. We've all been in a position like this. I don't know if this is applicable to this pilot but I still believe that the insurance company is acting in the most machiavellian way.
If he is still moderating this subject I would like to hear from Bob Mackey.
If he is still moderating this subject I would like to hear from Bob Mackey.
Re: Pilot performs forced landing day after insurance expire
Would you call your insurance agent, ask him/her this question, and report back to us what s/he says?floatsflyer wrote:We don't know the circumstances surrounding the insurance lapsing except the timing couldn't have been worse. I'm sure we've all not payed a bill on time because of nothing more than benign forgetfulness. Life gets in the way and sometimes things just aren't taken care of as they should in a timely manner. We've all been in a position like this. I don't know if this is applicable to this pilot but I still believe that the insurance company is acting in the most machiavellian way.
If he is still moderating this subject I would like to hear from Bob Mackey.
Re: Pilot performs forced landing day after insurance expire
Point taken, Dave. I hadn't thought of thatdstclair wrote:There is really no way for the insurer to know your flying experience over the last year, ratings/training received, last medical and the current claimed hull value.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
Re: Pilot performs forced landing day after insurance expire
Combined with the video of the recent incident, this is a very profound and helpful statement Paul, especially to me as a student. We read about soft-field, understand the reason why, but the above is the realization of how serious the situation of soft-field is if needed in the real world. To think that some planes can't even do a motor-out soft-field landing is mind blowing!drseti wrote:Once the nosewheel digs in, you're going over on your back, and there's not much you can do about it. So, the only defense is to keep the nosewheel off with full back stick. (Think taildragger landing technique.)
So the nosewheel digs in, and BAMM, you flip.
Those nice big soft fields down there are not as safe as they look!
Of course proficiency is a big factor, but how many pilots are really 100% on the soft-field technique at all times? (Watching normal landings at some airports is interesting... and you think these guys can do a correct soft-field?)
Makes me think more about roads and parking lots for an emergency landing.
Also makes me think about that chute more too!
Re: Pilot performs forced landing day after insurance expire
I have personally witnessed two softfield landing where the nose dug in and the plane tipped up on it's nose but did not go on it's back. One was a Citabria and one was a C172RG. As you must guess, the plane was going slowly when the nose dug in.designrs wrote:Combined with the video of the recent incident, this is a very profound and helpful statement Paul, especially to me as a student. We read about soft-field, understand the reason why, but the above is the realization of how serious the situation of soft-field is if needed in the real world. To think that some planes can't even do a motor-out soft-field landing is mind blowing!drseti wrote:Once the nosewheel digs in, you're going over on your back, and there's not much you can do about it. So, the only defense is to keep the nosewheel off with full back stick. (Think taildragger landing technique.)
Here is what is wrong with roads and parking lots:
So the nosewheel digs in, and BAMM, you flip.
Those nice big soft fields down there are not as safe as they look!
Of course proficiency is a big factor, but how many pilots are really 100% on the soft-field technique at all times? (Watching normal landings at some airports is interesting... and you think these guys can do a correct soft-field?)
Makes me think more about roads and parking lots for an emergency landing.
Also makes me think about that chute more too!
1. Chance of traffic which can not see you but is going fast
2. Chance of wires crossing the road
3. Chance of mailboxes, bridges and so forth that catch a wing
The chute is not a bad idea. The objective should be to minimize damage to people and the chute may often (but not always) be the best way to do that.
The AFH says in Chapter 8:
Landing on fields that are rough or have soft surfaces,
such as snow, sand, mud, or tall grass requires unique
procedures. When landing on such surfaces, the
objective is to touch down as smoothly as possible,
and at the slowest possible landing speed.
Chapter 16 is all about emergencies.
I'm not current on FAA guidance, but when I was teaching a lot, the DPE would not have been happy to see a student select a road over a field. I can't give you all the thinking on it.