CTLS Thoughts and Venting

[rfane]

So if I want my plane fixed I have to travel 2000 miles. It seems to me Flight Design should be willing to fix my plane at the dealership I bought it from.

You keep saying you want to give people with problems a chance to be heard, but you also say you only want positive Flight Design posts on your site. How can you make a positive post about lingering problems that Flight Design can't fix? What is positive about waiting a month or more for parts? It is hard to be optimistic when a service appointment must be made 3-4 weeks in advance and if weather does not permit flight on that day then another must be scheduled 3-4 weeks after.

The fact that some guys in the western US don't have those problems doesn't do any good for someone living in the mid Atlantic region of the US.

Art,

My problem with you is that you post about your problems in a way that is very unconstructive, comes across as bashing, and you don't take the advice offered to you in response. If I were you, I would of been on the phone with Tom Peghiny along time ago to get the issue resolved. Tom responded to your issue right away, after another member of this and the CT Flyer forum brought it to his attention. Why didn't you do that, rather than just piss and moan on an internet board? It's like 'oh woe is me, over and over again. Quit crying about it, and help to solve the problems.

You said you sent Tom a registered letter, but it turns out that it was back in November, and concerning the late delivery of your plane, not your issues with service. Pick up the phone or send him an email at the correct address that is listed on the FDUSA website. No one can fix what they don't know about.

They also can't control the weather. Thus, how is it their fault that it impacts you to meet your service appointment? Did you consider local service support before you bought your plane? I certainly did. Yes, I also have to fit within their schedule, as it's a fairly busy shop. I've taken a Rotax Line Maintenance course also, and can do routine oil changes, etc. myself. If you don't want to learn about your aircraft, then you should have stuck with a plane that everybody knows how to work on. Barring that, plan ahead and fly the plane to them ahead of time, rather than take the risk of being weathered out. Arrange a ride or a rental car for the ride home and back to pick it up. It's better than waiting for another appointment. Yes, it will cost you a few bucks, but what in aviation doesn't?

What parts have you had to wait for a month to get? Parts availability hasn't been an issue for me yet, but I don't mind getting on to Sebring's and CPS's website to get parts ahead of time for routine maintenance. You can get whatever you need for the Rotax there. My distributor also works with FDUSA and Sebring to get other parts as needed, and I haven't had delays at all.

I personally would jump on Roger's offer to pay for the flight to go to the fly in. Is anybody there going to fix your plane? No, but maybe they can point you in the right direction, and provide some support. It is not a Flight Design sponsored event. Rather, Roger put's his own time and effort into organizing the fly-in, and we were lucky to have Flight Design's support last year by them sending Oliver (most technically experienced guy at the company). Tom Peghiny also came, and John and Tom Dunham from FD West were there. We had people from Dynon there showing us tricks, etc. It also was a great time. Roger outdid himself, the flying was awesome, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. It's a beautiful area to visit.

You might possibly have a good time yourself. The way your posts strike me, I want to say that we can help you pull your head out of your as*, but I, and I'm sure others, would truly like to help you solve your problems. Who knows, maybe we might even get along in real life. My right seat is open during the Fly-In, and if you show up, are cordial, and want to learn about your plane, and have some fun, you are welcome to fly with me. Weather permitting of course. You can buy me a beer as well In the evening of course.

Roger started the CT Flyer site when myself, CharlieTango, and Roger were discussing CT's on this board, and discussed an owner's group. We wanted to learn all we could about our aircraft and share experiences with others. The site has achieved that, and I personally applaud Roger for developing it and keeping it going. It's his board, and he can make whatever rules he wants to for it. Through the CT Flyer site, I've met some great people, with whom I've shared some great experiences with, and have learned alot in the process. If you had the same attitude, you might find yourself welcome there.

To PilotJohn, whose original post kicked off this thread. Vent all you want, but again the CT Flyer site is Roger's personal property. It's not yours, thus you don't have the right to go on it and say whatever you want, without the chance of being filtered. It was created to discuss the CT ownership experiences, etc. Just because you want to compare your experience flying a CT to other LSA's, and to a 172SP, doesn't mean Roger has to like your post. He made a suggestion that this forum was more suitable, and I agree. I don't know what got you banned. Can you go to IBM or Microsoft's website, and post that you think something else is better? No, they own the site. Just because it's open to the public doesn't mean it's a forum of free speech.

I flew other LSA's and 172SP's before I bought my CT as well, and I encourage everybody considering buying a CT to do the same. I frankly don't care what your impressions or experiences are. Buy the aircraft that suits you and meets your mission. I did, and I'm quite pleased with the CT I own. My forum name on the CT Flyer site is "No Regrets". It's from how I choose to live my life, but it fits perfectly with my decision to buy a CT, and nearly a year and a half of experience with it.

[artp]

If I were you, I would of been on the phone with Tom Peghiny along time ago to get the issue resolved. Tom responded to your issue right away, after another member of this and the CT Flyer forum brought it to his attention.

As I have alread said, I did send him an email and a registered letter, both of which were ignored. Yes, he did respond recently to a post on this forum, however his response resulted in no action. My dealer never contacted me and the thermostat still doesn't work and the service center says it can't be fixed. He did say he would extend my warranty but everyone on this board knows as much as I do about that since his post on the board was the last I heard from him.

They also can't control the weather. Thus, how is it their fault that it impacts you to meet your service appointment?

The weather is not their fault but the fact that the only available service center is so busy that a bad flying day can add another month to the time required to fix something is their fault (they don't have an adaquate service network established).

Did you consider local service support before you bought your plane? I certainly did. Yes, I also have to fit within their schedule, as it's a fairly busy shop. I've taken a Rotax Line Maintenance course also, and can do routine oil changes, etc. myself. If you don't want to learn about your aircraft, then you should have stuck with a plane that everybody knows how to work on.

Which was my point in saying that Cessna with a large service network that will support their LSA might be a much better alternative for those looking for a plane.

Barring that, plan ahead and fly the plane to them ahead of time, rather than take the risk of being weathered out. Arrange a ride or a rental car for the ride home and back to pick it up. It's better than waiting for another appointment.

The oil change is $130. The ferry pilot would be $180. The brings the cost of a 25 hour oil change to $310. That just added the equivalent cost of 2+ gallons an hour fuel burn. It still doesn't solve the problem. What if the weather is bad when the ferry pilot is scheduled? How many days in advance should start scheduling ferry flights so that I can get it to the service center on the scheduled date?

What parts have you had to wait for a month to get? Parts availability hasn't been an issue for me yet, but I don't mind getting on to Sebring's and CPS's website to get parts ahead of time for routine maintenance. You can get whatever you need for the Rotax there. My distributor also works with FDUSA and Sebring to get other parts as needed, and I haven't had delays at all.

The first time (the one that generated the initial registered letter to Peghiny) was the initial delivery where it sat on the dealers field 2 months waiting for a brake check valve. The second time was for a month (landing light, CHT probe, and door struts). After a couple of weeks I called to find about the parts and was told they had to be shipped from Europe.

I am happy your distributer does such a good job for you. That doesn't help me (or anyone else in my region who thinks they might want a CT).

[ka7eej]

WOW------ANYONE WANT TO TALK ABOUT ALLEGRO 2000 OR 2007'S?????

[CharlieTango]

we can talk about allegros between rounds

[CharlieTango]

art,

i spent yesterday working with the founder and ceo of blue mounatin avionics. he and his top tech flew from tennessee to reno, $2,000k for flights and 6 man days time including travel.

they spent a day working on my avioncs, which already workded very well but i had some issues. didn't cost me a dime and i made some great connections. this is the difference in our approches, i use sugar and you prefer vinegar.

i'm the one that got tom p involved and now i regret it. you have been complaining about service issues since you got your plane, prior you complained about issues that you anticipated.

tom stepped up to the plate, and immediately got involved and what did you do? you appologized to your dealer, decided all your dealer issues are flight design's faults. and now you continue to complain about your service issues but blame flight design. very productive approach, you had an opportunity to use multiple paths to get what you want and in the end it seems you did because it seems you want to be a martyr more than a pilot.

you and others say there is no value in our group and fly-in, sure you might meet some nice people who like there planes you guys say. you miss the point, the point is the ctsw/ctls/ct2k flying, this design has some real merit and when we fly together, and meet together the merits and negatives become obvious and most come away learning things about their plane, how to fly it well, how capable it is and its limitations. all that adds up to a very positive impression by most.

that's why we would like you to come, we would like to learn that in real life your a good guy and we would like you to learn that we are not only nice people but most of us have some real background and valuable input.

we are not a bunch of ultralight pilots, well mot of us aren't ( present company excluded as well as some of the top fd people)

we talk so much because your negative message is very persuasive in print and yet many of us believe your message is off target.

ed

[artp]

i spent yesterday working with the founder and ceo of blue mounatin avionics. he and his top tech flew from tennessee to reno, $2,000k for flights and 6 man days time including travel.

they spent a day working on my avioncs, which already workded very well but i had some issues. didn't cost me a dime and i made some great connections. this is the difference in our approches, i use sugar and you prefer vinegar.

Too bad Flight Design isn't this responsive.

tom stepped up to the plate, and immediately got involved and what did you do? you appologized to your dealer, decided all your dealer issues are flight design's faults.

First, I apologized to my service center, not my dealer. They are not the same. With Tom and my service center are saying completely different things about the thermostat. Initially I accepted Tom's word that my plane did not have a thermostat, and based upon that I had some unkind words about my service center. When Tom admitted that my plane really did have a thermostat I had no choice but to apologize to the service center for what I had said. That still leaves the service center saying one thing and Tom another. At this moment my service center has more credibility that Tom.

Second if Tom stepped up to the plate, he struck out. He posted a response on this site indicating he would do some things that never happened. He said the dealer would contact me, he never did. He said my warranty would be extended, I have yet to get a verification of this. He said the thermostat works fine, mine still doesn't work and the service center says it can’t be fixed. Tom did nothing but make a public relations response.

[pilotjohn]

Jim,

My mind is not made up, I was just poking at Roger... I still think the CTLS is one of the best LSAs out there, albeight they are all getting a bit pricey for what you get. I have not finished my evaluation of all the airplanes, and haven't even decided wether an SLSA is right for me.

What I now dislike about the CT flyer forum is its totalitarian content disguised in open discussion. I was expecting to gain the same information as I did from the Cirrus boards - both good things and bad things, where you filter out the fluff and corner cases that taint the discussion. But, you live and learn... I'm done.

John

[CharlieTango]

art,

i was confused re service center vs dealer.

why not call you service center, rather than wait for them to call you. be cordial and remind them that you are waiting for a call, and per tom p you have expectations of a better service relationship?

you have admitted that your thermostat works, ( not correct temps ) and yet you say it doesn't. tp says it works with a limitation of 25f and then needs some tape, yet you make it a "he says it does, they say it doesn't" argument.

you do need to get your temps in the correct range.

you are wrong about tom p, he's not all about pr, he's a man of few words. if i was in your shoes i would find an a&p from my local field and get him to do things like oil changes as well as maintenance issues that are not being conveniently handled by the service center. i have done the same, fd likes to do the warranty work when they can but they can be extremely flexible. you got tom's agreement, use it rather than wait and complain. you know how to communicate, use your skills to solve your problems, it is easy.

you said "too bad flight design isn't this responsive" remember me telling you about all the times flight design did the same thing for me? they have flown to my location to do service bullitens and other maintenance.

too bad thay aren't this responsive for you perhaps, but that can be fixed. you don't have to become their fan, but you might need to suggest which paths would give you the best result and see if they are willing or how close they will come.

[rfane]

The weather is not their fault but the fact that the only available service center is so busy that a bad flying day can add another month to the time required to fix something is their fault (they don't have an adaquate service network established).

Which was my point in saying that Cessna with a large service network that will support their LSA might be a much better alternative for those looking for a plane.

So why didn't you buy a Cessna to begin with? You have said you owned a Cirrus in the past, and you likely had it serviced at the same shop you are using now. Advanced Aircraft Service which is owned by Jon Calla, who also owns FD Mid-Atlantic, is a Cirrus and Diamond service center also. Did you have the same issues then? If so, how did you deal with them? Cessna has the service center network because they have been in business for a long time, and have sold tens of thousands of aircraft. Why do you expect FD to have the same network in place, when they sold their first LSA here about 3 years ago, and have sold about 300 planes in the US?

The oil change is $130. The ferry pilot would be $180. The brings the cost of a 25 hour oil change to $310. That just added the equivalent cost of 2+ gallons an hour fuel burn. It still doesn't solve the problem. What if the weather is bad when the ferry pilot is scheduled? How many days in advance should start scheduling ferry flights so that I can get it to the service center on the scheduled date?

Who said anything about a ferry pilot? Can't you fly your plane? If so, and you have a scheduled service coming, then fly it over when the weather is good, and leave it with them for a couple of days. Airnav shows the distance from your field to Lancaster, PA to be 65 NM. Rent a car for the drive home, or have someone drive to pick you up.

I just had the gearbox service done on my CT at LSA West in Salinas. I dropped the plane off a day early, had my wife meet me there, and then we went over to Monterey for a nice dinner. This was because I planned ahead. When it was done, I was buried at work, and asked if they could fly it back to me. They quoted me $350 to do so, for 2 pilots and a plane to pick up the one who flew mine. My partner rented a car for the one-way to Salinas for less than $40, and flew our plane back. Again, it was due to us being flexible, not the service center. I don't fault them a bit, as they have a business to run. Their planes and CFI's are fairly well booked up in their flight school, and flying my plane back to me would cause complications in their schedule. They would do it, if I was willing to pay their price.

Take the Rotax course and do the oil changes yourself. Yes, the course costs $500., but your oil changes start costing $30 (oil, filter, drain plug gasket, and safety wire) going forward, and you learn alot more about your engine in the process.

What exactly are your expectations of owning an LSA? Do you think everybody is going to hold your hand on getting it serviced? It's a brand new class of aircraft with engines that most shops are not familiar with. If you won't step up to the plate to get familiar with it yourself, then you made the wrong decision to buy one. In the future make sure whatever you buy has a service center at your field, and don't fly anywhere that you might not have a knowledgable person to help you. Barring that, go back to renting airplanes, so you don't have the additional responsibility that comes with ownership.

After the CT Fly-In, weather permitting, I am taking my CT out to Yellowstone and the Grand Tetons. I don't expect that Jackson Hole Aviation is going to know how to do an oil change on the Rotax if I need one, nor that they will even carry the motorcycle oil. Yes, it would be great if they do, but I figure most likely not, and thus I'm prepared to do one myself. I'll be taking the oil, filter, safety wire, gasket, and tools, with me to do so. All I will need from the FBO is a pan to drain oil into. If I had your mentality, I wouldn't ever take my plane anywhere, nor would I have bought it to begin with.

[artp]

i was confused re service center vs dealer.

why not call you service center, rather than wait for them to call you. be cordial and remind them that you are waiting for a call, and per tom p you have expectations of a better service relationship?

It was the dealer that Tom said would call. The only complaint I have against my service center is that they have more work then they can handle.

you have admitted that your thermostat works, ( not correct temps ) and yet you say it doesn't. tp says it works with a limitation of 25f and then needs some tape, yet you make it a "he says it does, they say it doesn't" argument.

you do need to get your temps in the correct range.

The other day it was 80 degrees and the oil temperature did not get over 170. I said the thermostatic function works but it is either the wrong thermostat or the design of the cooling systems puts the thermostat in the wrong place or with the wrong oil flow.

if i was in your shoes i would find an a&p from my local field and get him to do things like oil changes as well as maintenance issues that are not being conveniently handled by the service center.

Years ago I used to take my cars to Jiffy Lube for oil changes (very convenient and no appointment required). One time they stripped the threads on my oil pan (they claimed the oil pan on my 2 year old car must have worn out). It cost me $350 to get it fixed. Ever since then I have taken my car to an authorized service center and ever since then I have had no further problems. I certainly don't intend to take my plane to some local shop in the hope they might know enough about my Rotax engine, my composite body, and my specialized parts requirements to properly fix my plane. When I lost the oil in the car it was major inconvenience but in a plane it could be fatal.

In any case, taking my plane to a local shop won't get my thermostat working. All they could possibly do is replace it with another of the same make and model. Since my service center is also an assembly point for CTs being imported into the US, I have to assume they have had enough experience with the CT and its systems to know when replacing the thermostat would not fix the problem.

I paid $30,000 for my current car and if I have a problem I can take to any authorized service center and have it fixed. I don't have to start 4 way negotiations between the manufacturer, the service center, the parts suppliers, and myself. I paid a lot more for my plane I don't think it is unreasonable to expect to get it fixed at an authorized service center.

I bought my plane because I thought it might be fun, I did not buy it with the intention of starting a new career in LSA maintenance. Nor did I buy it with the expectation of having to travel across the country to get suggestions on how to get Flight Design to honor my warranty. While the gathering of the CT group might be a bunch of fun guys who I would enjoy meeting, I don't see the CT as a way of life. I am not looking for new friends and new places to visit especially if I have to fly commercial airlines to get there. I am happy with my current life I was just hoping to be able to spend a few hours a month flying in a relatively reliable and trouble free new plane.

[CharlieTango]

...I paid a lot more for my plane I don't think it is unreasonable to expect to get it fixed at an authorized service center.

I bought my plane because I thought it might be fun...

even without the corvairs and smokers involved your logic remains hard to follow.

your basic complaint now is time and cost to get maintenance at the local service center. you are getting some valid suggestions on how to reduce your reliance on the service center but you argue against that thinking as well.

you create a box within which you are unhappy and refuse to move out of the box even a little bit.

as a pilot your familiarity with your engine and and airframe has to be greater than with a car. i didn't suggest you take your plane to jiffy lube and not look to see if they replaced the oil plug and replaced the safety wire. i recommended that you use a local a&p, a credible aircraft mechanic. it only takes 15 minutes and could potentially cost about 1/2 what you are paying.

your bashing has evolved quite a bit in a year. now you like your service center even though they cannot come close to servicing you to your satisfaction so you therefore bash flight design and praise your service center.

you are a retired programmer, a career based on logic. lets see


if(
ntsb reports find pilots at fault, or
ct owners talk about fuel management, or
service center isn't meeting your expectations, or
corvairs are unsafe, or
smoking is unsafe )

then(

don't do anything constructive to find resolution, and
bash flight design, and
bash flight design, and
bash flight desitn);

-- note the above logical strucure will not lead to enjoyment (fun)

[artp]

even without the corvairs and smokers involved your logic remains hard to follow.

Let me make it as simple as possible for you. I should not have to wait a month or more for parts. There should be enough authorized service centers in my region that I don't have to wait a month for an appointment. If something does not work I should not have to listen to the only authorized service center saying it can't be fixed, while Flight Design says it works fine but is not actually willing get it fixed. Is that clear enough or do you consider any mention of a Flight Design problem to be bashing?

Further I don't think it is the customers responsibility to find work arounds because of Flight Design's system failures (plane design, maintenance network, or parts stocking).

The other problems discussed in the past are still there but since I only put 12 hours on the plane I haven't been exposed to them. If I ever am able to sell the plane, I won't rant about the inability of Flight Design to provide warranty service either. That doesn't mean they solved their problem, it only means it doesn't impact me anymore.

[mcjon77]

....I paid $30,000 for my current car and if I have a problem I can take to any authorized service center and have it fixed. I don't have to start 4 way negotiations between the manufacturer, the service center, the parts suppliers, and myself. I paid a lot more for my plane I don't think it is unreasonable to expect to get it fixed at an authorized service center.

I bought my plane because I thought it might be fun, I did not buy it with the intention of starting a new career in LSA maintenance. ....

EXCELLENT point, artp. This statement is the exact reason why Cessna will be very successful when they enter the LSA market. Guys who are used to taking their Cessna or Cirrus to the service center 10-20 miles away from their home for repairs and having it ready to go in a few days are in for a shock dealing with these smaller companies.Flight Design is, IIRC, currently the largest seller of LSAs. Yet the market is so small that it only amounts to a few hundred total. If they have so few service centers, what are the smaller (usually MUCH smaller) LSA distributors going to do?

Personally, I don't see the problems artp is having with his CT to be indicative of problems with the plane or Flight Design, specifically. Rather, this is a perfect example of the issues that will come up when you buy ANY non-Cessna/Cirrus LSA.

I'm more of a do-it-yourself type of guy. I like fixing things (cars, computers, whatever) and would enjoy doing repairs on my own LSA. However, we cannot ignore the fact that there are people like artp who are more than willing to pay a premium to have the service done by someone else, reliably and quickly. It is the same as the guy who imediately drives his Lexus to the dealer because the steering or acceleration feels funny and expects the problem to be resolve after a day or two of work.

The problem is, there doesn't seem to be any other company that has the infrastructure to provide that level of service nationally other than Cessna (maybe Cirrus will be able to do it as well, if they start producing their LSA).

Does this mean that the Skycatcher is superior to th CTLS (or whatever new CT model comes out)? Of course not. It is simply a matter of trade offs that must be considered when purchasing ANY product. FOR ME, the Cessna Skycatcher is simply not a good value. I think it is painfully obvious, at this point, that the CT was the wrong aircraft for artp. It may be just right for many others, but it was not right for him. He, IMHO, is probably the EXACT target audience for a Cessna Skycatcher.

Just some thoughts.

[artp]

I think it is painfully obvious, at this point, that the CT was the wrong aircraft for artp. It may be just right for many others, but it was not right for him. He, IMHO, is probably the EXACT target audience for a Cessna Skycatcher.

I couldn't agree more. I learned years ago that my cars worked better when I didn't work on them myself.

If I had wanted to tinker with a plane an LSA offers an excellant opertunity since it only requires a 3 week course to legally repair one. However, I would not spend $130,000 on one just so I could fix it up. Nor would I buy one I could not get parts for. I would look for something much cheaper which was made from readily available parts. But that is just me.

However, if you really need the 548 lb useful load of the CTsw and don't think you will have the problems I had or that they wouldn't bother you then that is what the free market system is about.

[CharlieTango]

even without the corvairs and smokers involved your logic remains hard to follow.

Let me make it as simple as possible for you. I should not have to wait a month or more for parts. There should be enough authorized service centers in my region that I don't have to wait a month for an appointment. If something does not work I should not have to listen to the only authorized service center saying it can't be fixed, while Flight Design says it works fine but is not actually willing get it fixed. Is that clear enough or do you consider any mention of a Flight Design problem to be bashing? ....

you are applying general aviation standards to a new category. you are looking at the most mature slsa manufacturer and deeming what should be by decree. your current position would be more reasonable if, other slsa had achieved your standards, or if we weren't in a new category, or if you applied your intelligence and made your issues go away as opposed to wallowing in them. to each his own.

what i consider bashing is a whole year of something close to 100% negativity, moving from issue, to issue, real or imagined. if i listened to you i would avoid flight design like the plague, however i have 350 hours of real life experience operating out of one of the most demanding environments in the 48 states. you have 7% of that amount of time, not even enough to get familiar. the ctsw continues to impress me and everyone around here.

in my neck of the woods i get equivalent service to cessna/piper/cirrus owners.

the president emeritus of the cirrus owners and pilots association fly's with us ct guys on a regular basis. we know that your total negativity regarding your current aircraft is a personal trait. we know that you are highly effective with what you do. it is a bit hard to understand your motivation.

i wish you well and would like to think that our conversation is over. it is hard for me to sit back and watch the unwarranted damage you do so who knows?