Direction of Sports Pilot Industry

[drseti]

The way I see it, you have to spend money make money.

And, sadly, you have to spend more money to make less money. Only those few of us who truly see LSA as the future of general aviation are willing to make the sacrifice.

[drseti]

seeing how most of them have an engine made in Austria of all places ( the Rotax ) does not inspire confidence

Yes, the Rotax is made in Austria. The company is owned by Bombadier, a Canadian conglomerate. It uses Bing carburettors (from Germany), Ducati capacitive discharge ignition modules (from Italy), NGK sparkplugs (UK), etc. It is used in (among many others) the SportCruiser (made in Czech Republic), sold under the PiperSport label in the US. Piper Aircraft, in turn, is owned by a Singapori holding company, whose major stockholder is the Sultan of Brunai. In other words, think multinationalism. That's the nature of the world we now inhabit, and if you don't buy globalization, you'd best not buy an LSA!

[LightSportFlyer]

Yes, the Rotax is made in Austria. The company is owned by Bombadier, a Canadian conglomerate. It uses Bing carburettors (from Germany), Ducati capacitive discharge ignition modules (from Italy), NGK sparkplugs (UK), etc. It is used in (among many others) the SportCruiser (made in Czech Republic), sold under the PiperSport label in the US. Piper Aircraft, in turn, is owned by a Singapori holding company, whose major stockholder is the Sultan of Brunai. In other words, think multinationalism. That's the nature of the world we now inhabit, and if you don't buy globalization, you'd best not buy an LSA!

Yeah and look how "well" that strategy is paying off too, lsa's were hoped to be the savior of GA and it's not happening. But rather than change and at the very least offer customers a choice of engines it seems some companies would just as soon not and instead ride themselves right into the ground.

Take a look at a company that IS selling lsa's and what is working. Read Dan Johnson's August 18th post where he says "Washington based CubCrafters is the clear market leader for the first seven months of 2010, with 27 new registrations & Of the three companies with the most action this year, CubCrafters has moved forward smartly." - and both the ac and its engine are American made, who would have thought.

Obviously they understand the adage - give the customer what he wants, not what you think he should have. Well done CC !

[3Dreaming]

Yes, the Rotax is made in Austria. The company is owned by Bombadier, a Canadian conglomerate. It uses Bing carburettors (from Germany), Ducati capacitive discharge ignition modules (from Italy), NGK sparkplugs (UK), etc. It is used in (among many others) the SportCruiser (made in Czech Republic), sold under the PiperSport label in the US. Piper Aircraft, in turn, is owned by a Singapori holding company, whose major stockholder is the Sultan of Brunai. In other words, think multinationalism. That's the nature of the world we now inhabit, and if you don't buy globalization, you'd best not buy an LSA!

Yeah and look how "well" that strategy is paying off too, lsa's were hoped to be the savior of GA and it's not happening. But rather than change and at the very least offer customers a choice of engines it seems some companies would just as soon not and instead ride themselves right into the ground.

Take a look at a company that IS selling lsa's and what is working. Read Dan Johnson's August 18th post where he says "Washington based CubCrafters is the clear market leader for the first seven months of 2010, with 27 new registrations & Of the three companies with the most action this year, CubCrafters has moved forward smartly." - and both the ac and its engine are American made, who would have thought.

Obviously they understand the adage - give the customer what he wants, not what you think he should have. Well done CC !

That's what makes America great we can all have an opinion. I read the article by Dan Johnson, but come away seeing something different. The leading seller of LSA from the begining still sold 12 aircraft with most sellers being slow from the economy. Legend Cub which is an American company with an American engine didn't sell anything. What is the difference? Cub Crafters is offering a fire breathing, big wheeled, back woods, fly around home airplane, that fills a nitch. Some people like yourself who have been looking for that in an airplane are buying them now because they have not been availabe before. I think they are selling more because of what the airplane can do than because they are American made, otherwise Ledgend Would have been selling airplanes too. After the people who have been waiting for something like that purchase them the sales will likely slow down a bit. Being at shows around the country talking to peolpe about LSA aircraft it seems to me most people want comfort, technology, and cross country speed.
Just asking why do you think an engine built in Austria does not instill confidence?

EDIT After going back and looking at the numbers American Legend did sell 5 airplanes since Dec. 2009. The splog said they were unchanged. I took it to mean that the number of aircraft sold were unchanged, but what they meant is they still are in the number 2 position of total LSA's sold.

[LightSportFlyer]

Legend Cub which is an American company with an American engine didn't sell anything. What is the difference?

Just asking why do you think an engine built in Austria does not instill confidence?

Legend is a Cub clone and a single ( style ) product company, perhaps their tandem cockpit arrangement is a turnoff to some. I know it is for me though I will admit they make a beautiful high quality lsa. I just prefer side by side seating.

Regarding my lack of confidence in an Austrian built engine, its things like materials, workmanship, oversight, regulation, inspection, certification, etc. - how does one truly know what and how they are doing things over there.

You're going to come back at me and say don't worry "they're all built to ASTM standards". Yet according to a recent article written by Dan Johnson ( where would I be without him ! ) entitled "FAA To Change ASTM Certification?" on July 7th, 2010 "a recent FAA spot check of a number of manufacturers demonstrated that several companies were NOT maintaining full compliance with ASTM standards.

And also "when significant numbers of ( lsa )makers aren't toeing the line, FAA's "protect the public" mandate kicks into gear.

That's the kind of crap that "doesn't install confidence in me" whether it's built in the USA or not. When I heard lsa's were going to be self certifying my first thought was this is like "giving the fox the keys to the preverbial hen house" - don't worry you can trust us, yeah right.

And now the FAA isn't buying it either and is considering "a specially trained FAA team that would rigorously inspect the first production version of every new LSA model for compliance to ASTM standards."

You may also mention that there is a certified version of Rotax's 912 ULS engine if that is so important to me. According to Tecnam's site if I understand it correctly, a ROTAX Engine FAR 33 including Carb. Heat costs an extra $ 12,827 !!!

Next you may ask "so what exactly does install confidence in me" when it comes to lsa engines ? Specifically things like what Lycoming is doing: (from their own website)

- Having its own, recently announced, one-of-a-kind fully automated piston manufacturing line.

- The new piston manufacturing capability combines state-of-the-art robotic precision with unequalled quality control.

- “Our commitment to relentless improvement in every aspect of our operations put us in position to bring the manufacture of this critical component back in-house," said Michael Kraft, Lycoming Senior Vice President and General Manager. "We now have a world-class piston manufacturing capability to go with our class-leading achievements in safety, quality and delivery.”

- Automated quality checks are performed between each step in the manufacturing process, as well as at the completion of the production cycle. In addition, every fifth piston is inspected manually.

- Headquartered in Williamsport, Pennsylvania, Lycoming piston engines power more than half of the world's general aviation fleet - both rotary-wing and fixed-wing.

- And they've been in the business of building GA engines for what, over 50 + years ? Good enough for me.

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/news-an ... index.html

And no - I don't work for them either.

[3Dreaming]

Legend Cub which is an American company with an American engine didn't sell anything. What is the difference?

Just asking why do you think an engine built in Austria does not instill confidence?

Legend is a Cub clone and a single ( style ) product company, perhaps their tandem cockpit arrangement is a turnoff to some. I know it is for me though I will admit they make a beautiful high quality lsa. I just prefer side by side seating.

Regarding my lack of confidence in an Austrian built engine, its things like materials, workmanship, oversight, regulation, inspection, certification, etc. - how does one truly know what and how they are doing things over there.

You're going to come back at me and say don't worry "they're all built to ASTM standards". Yet according to a recent article written by Dan Johnson ( where would I be without him ! ) entitled "FAA To Change ASTM Certification?" on July 7th, 2010 "a recent FAA spot check of a number of manufacturers demonstrated that several companies were NOT maintaining full compliance with ASTM standards.

And also "when significant numbers of ( lsa )makers aren't toeing the line, FAA's "protect the public" mandate kicks into gear.

That's the kind of crap that "doesn't install confidence in me" whether they're built in USA or not. When I heard lsa's were going to be self certifying my first thought was this is like "giving the fox the keys to the preverbial hen house" - don't worry you can trust us, yeah right.

And now the FAA isn't buying it either and is considering "a specially trained FAA team would rigorously inspect the first production version of every new LSA model for compliance to ASTM standards."

You may also mention that there is a certified version of Rotax's 912 ULS engine if its that important to me. According to Tecnam's site if I understand it correctly, a ROTAX Engine FAR 33 including Carb. Heat costs $ 12,827 extra !!!

Next you may ask "so what exactly does install confidence in me" when it comes to lsa engines ? Specifically things like what Lycoming is doing: (from their own website)

- Having its own, recently announced, one-of-a-kind fully automated piston manufacturing line.

- The new piston manufacturing capability combines state-of-the-art robotic precision with unequalled quality control.

- “Our commitment to relentless improvement in every aspect of our operations put us in position to bring the manufacture of this critical component back in-house," said Michael Kraft, Lycoming Senior Vice President and General Manager. "We now have a world-class piston manufacturing capability to go with our class-leading achievements in safety, quality and delivery.”

- Automated quality checks are performed between each step in the manufacturing process, as well as at the completion of the production cycle. In addition, every fifth piston is inspected manually.

- Headquartered in Williamsport, Pennsylvania, Lycoming piston engines power more than half of the world's general aviation fleet - both rotary-wing and fixed-wing.

- And they've been in the business of building GA engines for what, over 50 + years ? Good enough for me.

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/news-an ... index.html

And no - I don't work for them either.

So if the engines were built in Germany would it be OK, or does it need to be built in the USA? Is it the fact that it is built to ASTM standards that is the problem?

[drseti]

a recent FAA spot check of a number of manufacturers demonstrated that several companies were NOT maintaining full compliance with ASTM standards.

To the best of my knowledge, these concerns regard specific LSA manufacturers. As far as I know, there were no specific concerns expressed about Rotax or its engines.

When I heard lsa's were going to be self certifying my first thought was this is like "giving the fox the keys to the proverbial hen house"

As an engineer (and one who has dealt extensively with government agencies), I see it a little differently. Would you prefer to have compliance regulated by a professional association of engineers, or by Washington bureaucrats? I know my preference...

"a specially trained FAA team that would rigorously inspect the first production version of every new LSA model for compliance to ASTM standards."

And I have no problem with that. It never hurts to add another layer of quality control. So, once the first Rotax engine is inspected by that FAA team and found compliant, will that allay your concerns?

a ROTAX Engine FAR 33 including Carb. Heat costs an extra $ 12,827

Yes, that sounds about right. Similarly, an FAR-33 compliant version of the Lycoming IO-233 will cost about 60% more than the non-certified version. I suspect that money goes to the lawyers and insurance, not toward improved components or testing (since both engines are built on the same assembly line).

Having its own, recently announced, one-of-a-kind fully automated piston manufacturing line.

My friends at Textron tell me their decision to produce their pistons in-house, rather than continuing to outsource them, was purely a financial decision. Vertical integration of the whole production process saves them money. Although they have had a history of problems with outsourced crankshafts, I know of no ADs or recalls involving their pistons, regardless of where manufactured.

And no - I don't work for them either.

Neither do I, though I happen to live in Lycoming's hometown, and know many of the people who do work there - from their former president on down. I flew behind their engines for over 30 years, and consider them an excellent product. I've only been flying behind a Rotax for one year now. But (speaking as an aircraft owner, flight school operator, commercial pilot, and engineer), I see absolutely no cause for concern with Rotax engines, from a standpoint of design, robustness, safety, reliability, documentation, or parts availability in the US.

Your mileage may vary.

[LightSportFlyer]

So if the engines were built in Germany would it be OK, or does it need to be built in the USA? Is it the fact that it is built to ASTM standards that is the problem?

I thought I made that clear. As an American, and for something as critically important as an AC engine, I personally prefer them to be built by an American manufacturer using the materials and workmanship that Lycoming now does, and which I can far better identify with than a foreign manufacturer.

As I documented, several LSA builders are not adhering to the current ASTM standards. I personally don't believe self certifying to ASTM standards works, especially for something as unforgiving as an airplane.

If self certifying is an equally good concept then why doesn't the FAA allow it for GA as well ? Because it just proved itself it isn't, thats why.

[LightSportFlyer]

As an engineer (and one who has dealt extensively with government agencies), I see it a little differently. Would you prefer to have compliance regulated by a professional association of engineers, or by Washington bureaucrats? I know my preference...

So, once the first Rotax engine is inspected by that FAA team and found compliant, will that allay your concerns?

Similarly, an FAR-33 compliant version of the Lycoming IO-233 will cost about 60% more than the non-certified version. I suspect that money goes to the lawyers and insurance, not toward improved components or testing (since both engines are built on the same assembly line).

My friends at Textron tell me their decision to produce their pistons in-house, rather than continuing to outsource them, was purely a financial decision. Vertical integration of the whole production process saves them money.

I happen to live in Lycoming's hometown, and know many of the people who do work there - from their former president on down. I flew behind their engines for over 30 years, and consider them an excellent product. I've only been flying behind a Rotax for one year now. But (speaking as an aircraft owner, flight school operator, commercial pilot, and engineer), I see absolutely no cause for concern with Rotax engines, from a standpoint of design, robustness, safety, reliability, documentation, or parts availability in the US.

Your mileage may vary.

Obviously your "professional association of engineers unregulated record of compliance" just didn't work in the real world did it ? Sounded good on paper but put in practice there WERE cheaters and it FAILED. I'll take goverment regulation if that's what it takes to root out cheaters who put profit over my life anyday.

When the Rotax and Lycoming IO-233 both become FAA compliant I'll still prefer the Lycoming if for no other reason than it's larger service network. Like I stated earlier who needs the hassles of finding someone to work on your engine when the local A & P can't.

Until the price of the certified IO-233 comes out your "60 % price premium" is pure speculation.

Whether Lycoming's decision to manufacture it's pistons inhouse was financial or not really doesn't matter. The end result is we consumers benefit from getting state of the art manufacturing and quality control using the highest quality materials and workmanship available in the world. That's company I want to go with.

I appreciate your 30 year testimonial for Lycoming's products, that confirms to a newcomer their products are indeed the best. If I recall correctly you are trying to start up an LSA school and currently there are only a couple LSAs that offer American made engines. I suspect you are using a European made LSA with a Rotax engine purely because you have no choice. If you like it, that's what's most important, to each his own.

[ArionAv8or]

If you like it, that's what's most important, to each his own.

I think that pretty much sums up the engine debate.

[drseti]

If I recall correctly you are trying to start up an LSA school

You remember mostly correctly. I have started up an LSA school, and it's been booked solid since I began operations in January. Became profitable during my second quarter of operations, so trying to doesn't exactly cover it.

currently there are only a couple LSAs that offer American made engines.

Ture.

I suspect you are using a European made LSA with a Rotax engine purely because you have no choice.

Partly true. I came very close to buying an AMD Zodiac (Canadian design, American built, with an American engine). Then, they started suffering in-flight breakups, the FAA grounded them all, and I went back to plan B: an Eastern European LSA that's been out for a dozen years and never had an in-flight failure.

If you like it, that's what's most important, to each his own.

With that, nobody can argue. I do hope you find a US product that suits you, and am pleased to welcome you to the world of light sport aviation.

With regard to the dearth of authorized Rotax mechanics, this is a very real problem to which I find only one solution. I have enrolled in Rainbow Aviation's 3-week course, begin in October, and by early November I will be a Rotax authorized LSA mechanic with both maintenance and inspection privileges. I wish more folks would do this!

[3Dreaming]

So if the engines were built in Germany would it be OK, or does it need to be built in the USA? Is it the fact that it is built to ASTM standards that is the problem?

I thought I made that clear. As an American, and for something as critically important as an AC engine, I personally prefer them to be built by an American manufacturer using the materials and workmanship that Lycoming now does, and which I can far better identify with than a foreign manufacturer.

As I documented, several LSA builders are not adhering to the current ASTM standards. I personally don't believe self certifying to ASTM standards works, especially for something as unforgiving as an airplane.

If self certifying is an equally good concept then why doesn't the FAA allow it for GA as well ? Because it just proved itself it isn't, thats why.

Finally we get to the truth. Why didn't you just say I like an American built airplane with an American built engine? I can see your reasoning for the Lycoming 233LSA engine. It is based on an engine that has been around for 70 years, with little change in the design or the way they are built. This makes it a well proven engine, but here is
a little food for thought. Both the Lycoming 233LSA and the Rotax are built to the same ASTM standards using self certification. Both are made in state of the art facilities. Both are based on certified engines. Both companies have been building engines for many years, though Lycoming has been building aircraft engines longer. Since both engines are being built to ASTM standards the companies can decide who can work on the engines. To me it looks like they are pretty much on the same playing field. Most of your reasoning for lack of confidence in the Rotax engine applies to the Lycoming as well. For me I like the advancement in technology that the Rotax engine offers over the Lycoming, but that is my choice.

[dstclair]

I would expect Lycoming to price the certified version of the IO-233 in similar proportion to what Continental does with their O-200 Lighweight and O-200A series. The O-200 LW lists for $21,500 and O-200A (there are multiple variants) runs around $26,000.

BTW -- the O-200 LW has been out awhile and, I believe, weighs about the same as the Lycoming IO-233. No LSA vendor, US or otherwise, has been jumping on the O-200 LW bandwagon either. The Arion Lightning is a new LSA entry from a US company and chose the Jabiru. The Jab is a conventional aircraft engine and made in Australia. It's also lighter than the Continental and Lycoming. Just maybe aircraft manufacturers choose components based on engineering reasons. Just a thought.

[Aerco]

Considering the history of the Rotax company and the data available on their current engines, objecting to them and doubting their safety simply because they are made "over there" is nothing more than a xenophobic opinion, based on zero evidence. The 4 cylinder Rotax has powered aircraft across the Pacific and Atlantic and clear around the world. Rotax has been around, for what, almost a century? I guess everything "foreign" has to be suspect?
They couldn't possibly know what they are doing? Quality control is something only Americans know how to achieve? Foreign companies have no regard for quality or safety and will cut corners given the slightest chance? Ridiculous.

Given equal prices and power/weight I would still go for a Continental type of engine over the Rotax, simply because I like mechanical simplicity. I don't care who makes it or where. Right now Lycoming and Continental can't achieve the the power to weight ratio of the Rotax (with the same reliability) and that is why they fail in the marketplace of LSA.

[LightSportFlyer]

Considering the history of the Rotax company and the data available on their current engines, objecting to them and doubting their safety simply because they are made "over there" is nothing more than a xenophobic opinion, based on zero evidence. The 4 cylinder Rotax has powered aircraft across the Pacific and Atlantic and clear around the world. Rotax has been around, for what, almost a century? I guess everything "foreign" has to be suspect?

They couldn't possibly know what they are doing? Quality control is something only Americans know how to achieve? Foreign companies have no regard for quality or safety and will cut corners given the slightest chance? Ridiculous.

Rotax has been making 4 stroke engines for almost a century ? Didn't know that.

You make an interesting case for the Rotax but then when it comes to spending your own money and what you're willing to trust your life with - you buy American made.

In addition to mechanical simplicity ( which I agree is better especially in an Lsa ) as previously mentioned you also have the huge benefit of the large American made service networks.